UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Hunting, Forestry, and Shooting Forum Das Alte Schutzenscheibe (The old Shooting Target)

I have wanted to acquire an old German Schutzenscheibe for a few years now. I have seen them posted on eBay and German Daggers.com in the past.

I made a "Gift" of 2 items that my friend from Germany, "Mr. K." wanted and he bought my "Gift" that I wanted on the German eBay site from a seller who did not ship to the U.S. I thought if I created a thread on German Daggers.com the members and I might learn more about these traditional German items that I know little about. The "Gift" from "Mr. K." is pictured below. While waiting for the Schutzenscheibe to arrive I did some research on types. Today I received my "Gift" from Germany.

SIZE: 24 CM (small), 33 CM (medium), 42 CM (large), 60 CM (extra-large). Source: 1912 August Stukenbrok catalog. Sizes will vary by a few CM.
TIME PERIOD: 17th century, 18th century, 19th century, early 20th century (1900-1913), WW1 (1914-1918), Weimar period (1919-1932), 3rd Reich period (1933-1945), WW2 period (1939-1945) and post WW2 period.
MILITARY or CIVILIAN.
HANDPAINTED or PRINTED PAPER.
SHOT (used) or UNSHOT (unused).
NAMED or UNNAMED.
DATED or UNDATED.
LOCATION or NO LOCATION.
WOOD BACK or NO WOOD BACK.
ORIGINAL WOODEN PEGS or NO WOODEN PEGS. Note that the wooden pegs are used in the holes found in used Schutzenscheiben (Shooting targets).
TARGET SCENE.

My Schutzenscheibe is 25 CM, WW2 period, printed paper target, shot (used), named (Jochen Haut), dated 18.3.44 (18 March 1944), with location (Lamsdorf), no wood back (cardboard), no wooden pegs. It is also a hunting scene with Hirsch (Stag) & Hirschkuh (Stag cow). The Schutzenscheibe has the shooters surnames on the front in ink with some numbers (scores) in pencil. The back of the Schutzenscheibe has the winner's name stamped with the numbers (scores) and surnames of the other shooters in pencil. I believe this "1 Gruppe, Scharfschutzenkompanie, Lamsdorf" Schutzenscheibe is associated with Stalag VIII-B later known as Stalag 344 in June 1943.

PS hey Mikee, you posted a 1942 Military Schutzenscheibe with the same target scene on the "Let's see something" thread. How about posting your 1942 Military Schutzenscheibe here.

C. Wetzel-20609

Nice
I like those
I have few older ones and they are great for display.

My research has found another 1944 military Schutzenscheibe from Lamsdorf. 42 CM Durchmesser (Diameter), WW2 period, marked on top "Ehrenscheibe der 3. Gruppe." and bottom marked "Scharfschutzen Komp. Lamsdorf-OIS Sept. 1944."

The target subject scene shows soldiers with skiing equipment, lying prone on the snow-covered ground shooting at a target. This Ehrenscheibe (Honor target) was sold June 2023 from a German auction site.

Note that these targets are marked Scharfschutzen (Sharp shooters) Kompanie, Lamsdorf. I wonder if these soldiers were located in the guard towers at the Stalag.

C. Wetzel-20609

Very nice field of collecting! And very nice Schuetzenscheiben you do show us here. I personally would differ between those from certain groups like eg the Scharfschuetzenkomp. or any shooting assotiation and other, more privately producd Schuetzenscheiben for events like a birthday party for a hunter (in the Stukenbrok list called "Ehrenscheibe" = honor target. But these are just my personal thoughts.
Such a "Schuetzenscheibe" is for sure a highlight in any shooting/hunting collection.
Regards,

Wotan, thank you very much for your personal thoughts.

Since this is a new field of collecting for me, I am eager to learn. I do favor the 3rd Reich period German military shooting targets with names and other information. Size, age and target subject seems to matter when it comes to price on the popular auction site. If I found an Ehrenscheibe from Gadebusch, Ober Morlen or the Nr. 57 Infantry Regiment to go-with one of my Hirschfangers, I would be interested. Also, an Ehrenscheibe with the surname Wetzel would be hard for me to resist. They say 3 examples of a collectable makes a collection; I need at least 2 more shooting targets.

I have much to learn and I hope others will give their research information, personal thoughts and photos too.

Best regards, Calvin

The 1912 August Stukenbrok catalog, page 169 notes: "Holzbrand-Schutzen-Ehrenscheibe und Wanddekorationen", I think this translates to "Wood Firing-Shooting-Honor target and Wall decorations".

Note that Nr. 8795 is "Ahornholz" (Maple wood) and extra-large 60 CM size, this is why it is the most expensive at 17.50 Mk (Marks). The others in 24 CM, 33 CM, and 44 CM are probably backed with a less expensive wood.

The 1912 August Stukenbrok catalog, page 168 notes "Ehrenscheiben auf bestem karton" (Honor targets on the best cardboard) and these are the less expensive targets. My 1944 Schutzenscheibe is cardboard with no wood on the back and was listed on the German eBay site for 55 Euros or best offer. "Mr. K." bought my 1944 Schutzenscheibe for best offer.

I hope this information will give some new collectors an idea on how to price these Alte Schutzenscheiben (Old Shooting targets) on the popular auction site.

C. J. W.-20609

When I once traveled through the german countries of the "old GDR" (=DDR) I did notice nearly in each village the front of the house of the certain "Schuetzenmeister" (shooting master) decorated with such Schuetzenscheiben from theses several years when he had been successful. They obviously did compeet either village against village or shooting assotiation against other shooting assitiation. In Austria I could notice such Schuetzeenscheiben sometimes inside of country inns where any hunting club or a shooting assotiation has had it´s headquater. They were there for display.
As such Schuetzenscheiben (used ones) are mostly common property of a hunting club or shooting assotiation and are closely connected to it´s history they do come rarely for sale.
Regards,

Wetzel,

Thank you, I will post that target soon and If you have any questions about targets please feel free to ask and I will do my best. Best!

Thanks Mikee, my first question is what you think about this Ehrenscheibe I just bought from the popular auction site late last night.

39.37 CM, 3rd Reich period, Military, printed paper, shot (used), named (Leutnant Schellhammer), dated (9 Juni 1938), no location, two color wood construction, original wood pegs (1 missing), French R T Renault tank target scene, maker mark on back.

C. J. W.-20609

Wetzel,
I'm far from an expert but I like it. They are faked so be careful.

Here is mine with same print. WHW 1st place prize. Don't want to give to much away but the target is very well made. Thanks for asking.

Infantry Panzer Jager Target

Thanks for posting the photos, Mikee.

Correction: My 1944 Schutzenscheibe was listed on the German eBay site for 59,99 Euros ($63.84 USD) or best offer not 55 Euros ($58.53 USD) or best offer. "Mr. K." bought my 1944 Schutzenscheibe for best offer.

I think the 1938 Ehrenscheibe was 1st listed for about $450.00 on the popular auction site and then the U. S. seller dropped the price twice over about 2 months to $275.00 + $25.00 S+H for a total of $300.00.

Similar Ehrenscheiben with the Renault R T-17 tank target scene range from about $300.00 to $525.00 USD.

Sellers of targets on the U. S. popular auction site are asking for more money than the German site. The problem is the German sellers don't want to ship to the U.S.A.

Maybe they want to keep their Alte Schutzenscheiben in Germany.

PS I believe the maker's mark on the back of the 1938 Ehrenscheibe is KRICO. Krico is the brand name of the German firm of Krieqeskorte GmbH. The company has a history dating back to 1878.

C. J. W.-20609

Wetzel,

They can be expensive. Yes Krico is a gun manufacturer. I have used them before. All the best!

I found this about Leutnant Schellhammer:

Leutnant Schellhammer war ein Offizier in der Panzerabwehr-Abteilung 5 mit dem Friedensstandort in Villingen/Schwarzwald. Diese Einheit wurde später in Panzerjäger-Abteilung 5 umbenannt12. Hier sind einige Informationen über die Abteilung:

Aufstellung: Die Panzerabwehr-Abteilung 5 wurde am 15. Oktober 1935 gegründet.
Kommandeure:
Maj. Ernst Becht (ab 1. Oktober 1935)
Maj. Rüdiger von Schuler (ab 1. Oktober 1937)
Maj. Helmet Golden (ab 1. August 1938)1.
Wenn Sie weitere Informationen über diese Einheit suchen, könnte es interessant sein, das Buch “Die Geschichte der Panzerabwehr-Abteilung 5 vom 15. Okt. 1935 bis 31. Dez. 1937” zu finden, das während der Zeit von Meinrad von Lauchert dort veröffentlicht wurde1. Leider habe ich keine Kopie dieses Buches gefunden, aber vielleicht gibt es Archive oder andere Quellen, die Ihnen weiterhelfen können.

Bitte beachten Sie, dass dies eine historische Einheit ist, und ich empfehle, weitere Forschungen durchzuführen, um mehr über ihre Geschichte und die Offiziere zu erfahren, die dort gedient haben.

Wetzel,

Awesome find!

Here are 3 photos I took today of my Schutzenscheibe. Note that this example is the least expensive cardboard target. I tried to get a photo of the numbers & names written in pencil on the back of the target. Note that there are 13 names written on the back of the target and 13 holes in the target with 1 hole on the outside edge.

I have not seen another all-cardboard target from the WW2 period, except for one mounted on a large square piece of wood with German writing on the bottom of the wood from 1943.

I think you must see the back of a target and compare to other similar targets. If the seller does not show the back, the buyer is at a disadvantage.

Some wood backed targets have a narrow piece of wood on the back. Some old targets have old hardware or the mark where the old hardware was. Some old targets will have replaced hardware.

Reproductions of Historical Schutzenscheiben are offered on the German eBay site and noted as reproductions. The backs of the reproduction Schutzenscheiben on the German eBay site are not shown.

C. J. W.-20609

Great target!! A lot of holes for no kill shot though.

A stag is a male deer, typically of the red deer species, that has antlers. The antlers of a stag are typically larger and more branched than those of a female deer, known as a hind. Stags shed their antlers annually and grow a new set the following year. The vital organs of a red stag are located in the chest cavity, which is protected by the ribcage. The heart and lungs are the primary targets for a clean kill, as a shot to either of these organs will result in rapid blood loss and death. The spine and brain are also effective targets, but they are smaller and more difficult to hit.

I believe the Schutzenscheibe winner Jochen Haut did score a kill shot. His winning shot is circled in black ink to the left of his surname Haut on the front of the target and, his full name is on the back of the target.


C. J. W.-20609

Wetzel,

I would have to respectfully slightly disagree, If you are talking Red Deer or any deer species for that matter, the female deer will not normally have antlers only the male. The exception being female Reindeers. I do agree that the Heart and double Lung shot are the best shot to take, but it depends on the angle of the shot. In your Target it looks like his shot just missed it's mark, but was the best shot over all so he wins. Would it have killed, certainly and eventually. Best!

Mikee is correct, either with roe deer (Rehwild) nor red deer (Rotwild) or fallow deer (Damwild) the female part has antlers. You do see this very well in your Schuetzenscheibe of "1.Gruppe Scharfschützenkompanie Lambsdorf" where a roe deer - deer and a roe deer - hind is shown.
Regards,

ed773 you were correct.

Thanks to Mikee and wotan for the correction. I am no deer hunter and used copy and paste from two "Stag Red Deer kill target" sites for the information I found late last night.

I have hunted small game many years ago with small arms and Bear Archery recurve bows.

Best regards, Calvin

Hey Wetzel,

Not a biggie at all we are here to enjoy, have fun and learn. Our targets show Capital Hirsch Red Deer. I have seen the crowns so large and big as a bowl lined with silver for decoration and prizes. Also I have seen them made of that type of cardboard.Best!

I have been researching for Alte Schutenscheiben und Ehrenscheiben and gathering images for the past 2 days.

I have also been noting 2 types of original metal hangers on the 1930's to 1940's targets. One is a triangle shape wire loop attached to a square piece of metal secured to the target with 2 round head tacks (1936 target). The other is a flat piece of metal with a triangular base and round top secured to the target with 3 round head tacks (1932 target).

I just found this site and it is the most interesting site yet. If you scroll down on the page there are pages from the 1912 August Stukenbrok catalog, Schutzen rifles, original advertisement from sellers of targets and old targets. https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/hunting-traditions-legends/marksmanship-and-targets/

The Renault RT-17 tank target format (paper target scene) is marked in the lower right corner "H. FRIEDMANN" and is probably the artist.

I have found images of this target format with one target dated 1937. Also note these targets come in different sizes.

C. J. W.-20609

Good afternoon! There is such a target on sale.Has anyone ever seen such an image?
A paper target of the Hitler Jugend printed in the factory way.
Size: 13*13 cm, diameter 12 cm. paper made of two layers, thick.

This target is 55 cm..with a gift inscription.

Good afternoon Ollar, I did come across the H J target image you posted. I think there were 3 different formats (target scenes). I don't remember the site.

There is a fantastic site that most members of German Daggers.com are probably familiar with called "Germania International". On the home page under "3rd Reich", you will see "Hunting and Shooting". There are some targets listed.

Today on "Germania International" I looked at some Scottish Dirks that were very nice, my mother's maiden name is McKinnon (also spelled MacKinnon in Scotland).

Here are some targets I found on the site and the link: https://www.germaniainternational.com/hunting.html

My 1938 Ehrenscheibe arrived 17 April 2024 from a Nevada art dealer, and it is wonderful. Target was listed as 15 1/2 inch and is about 39.5 CM. Target is two-tone wood and 6 mm thick.

There is a tiny nail in the tank turret that was probably used to take measurement distance of the bullet holes from the nail. The tiny nail does not go through the back of the target. I did not notice this nail in the sellers' photos.

The back of the target is lacking the original triangle wall hanger and there are two tacks; 1 with "ORIGINAL" over "R001" and the other has a design in the center. The tacks are probably of non-German origin. There is also a black material where a wall hanger may have been and a red / white string.

I have found the image of another two-tone wood target dated 1942 with some probable water damage that cracked the wood.

C. J. W.-20609

ollar,

Nice target. Because of the pictures, I can't tell if a small caliber Zimmerstutzen or parlor target rifle was used or a Schutzen rifle was used. Best!

Wetzel,

I like your targets, thanks for posting them. A device was used to measure the distance of shots when shots are very close to find out who had the best shot and If I can find a picture I will post it. I know of the website you posted and the Historic target reproductions. I have seen all those targets and the places mentioned and much much more many years ago now. Time flies lol. Best.

ollar,

I need to slow down, the target does say Kleinkaliber or small bore/caliber.Best!

In 1935, under Joseph Stalin, targets were made for propaganda....

A very interesting target and format Ollar, "targets made for propaganda". The target format seems to be a British soldier.

I believe the French Renault tank target format made by the Germans would also be considered "targets made for propaganda".

I found an image of a German 1915 WW1 "Sir Edward Grey", "target made for propaganda".

Sir Edward Grey: His most important action came in the July Crisis in 1914, when he led Britain into World War I against Germany. He convinced the Liberal cabinet that Britain had an obligation and was honor-bound to defend France and prevent Germany from controlling Western Europe. Once the war began, there was little role for his diplomacy; he lost office in December 1916.

C. Wetzel-20609

I found an image from a German pre-WW2 Akah catalog with two pages of targets.

Wetzel,

The nail on your target held a small target made of cardboard. This is what they aimed at. Best!

Thanks Mikee, you are probably correct. I found an image of a 1959 target with the addition of a bullseye on the target format that looks to be glued to the target with two more bullseyes glued to the back of the target.

Also note the 3rd of five Renault tank targets has a bullseye on the turret just to the right of where the nail is placed on my 1938 target.

C. J. W.-20609

Wetzel,

I am positive that's what the nail on your Target was used for. Yes sometimes nailed and sometimes glued and sticker type. I have also seen both round and square pegs. Best!

The pre WW2 Akah catalog above listed:

"Kleine (small) Ehrenscheiben" for Zimmerstutzen (room-shooters, using a "parlor rifle") and Kleinekaliber (small caliber).
"Kleine Ehrenscheiben formig fur Luftgewehr (air rifle) Scheibenkasten".
"Grosse (large) Ehrenscheiben".
"Ehrenscheiben Auf Karton (cardboard) Formig in Oldruck" (oil).
"Grosse (large) Runde (round) Ehrenscheiben Auf 2-3 mm dickem (thick) Pappkarton". ***Research note: my 1944 cardboard target is 2 mm dickem (thick).
"Ehren-Scheiben F. E. (Furnier Ersatz)" (veneer replacement).
"Sperrholz (plywood) Ehrenscheiben DRGM". ***Research note: from Wikipedia; Plywood was introduced into the United States in 1865 and industrial production there started shortly after.
"Holz (wood)-Ehrenscheiben". listed under this heading are two types: Sperrholz (plywood) and Ehrenholz (Adler wood).

I did my best to translate some German words, interesting to know plywood, Adler wood and Maple wood are used for targets. C. J. W.-20609

Wetzel,

That's pretty good. I have that catalog with a bunch more.

I found this image of a 1940 German target. Note the wood pegs to mark bullet holes. I believe the target subject is probably done in "Oldruck" (oil) and depicts a British soldier.

This 1940 target could probably be considered another German "target made for propaganda".

I would love to have this target in my collection. C. Wetzel-20609

In the beginning of this thread, I stated that the numbers on the front and back of my 1944 cardboard target were the shooters scores. I was mistaken, they are the 1 through 13 numbers of the individual shooter.

Today using a magnifying glass on the front of the target I could read the numbers next to the surname. Three surnames on the front; Berndt, Scharf and Korsawe, I could find no number next to their surnames. Using the back of the target, I could find their numbers. These surnames are for the most part, Germanic with a Polish (Korsawe) surname and a French (Clement) surname.

Here is my shooters list:
1. Elkemann-Reusch
2. Berndt
3. Scharf
4. Clement
5. Rudolf
6. Rethmeier
7. Rogozq
8. Korsawe
9. Behr
10. Haut
11. Beer
12. Geiss
13. Bruckner