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#338789 06/23/2018 10:00 AM
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wotan Offline OP
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Hello collector friends! Today I want to ask if you do know anything about this kind of portepee I have bought short ago.

Years ago Tom Wittmann has sold exactly such a portepee mounted on a diplomat s dagger. In his announcement he did show also a photograph with diplomats(?) and gov officials (with cuff title -Ost-) and did write that on this photograph the certain portepee was worn. Unfortunately the pic was so blurry that I for me could not recognize anything. Wittmann did write it is a diplomats lower rank portepee.
This certain dagger, together with it?s special portepee later has been sold again by TMJohnson.

About one year ago I have been asked concerning the originality of a diplomat s dagger and it also had attached such a portepee. The dagger was original without any question. It is remarkable that this combo did come directly out of a private household! So it is without question period and diplomat related. As it has been the business of another collector I unfortunately could not do any research concerning the portepee.
At least these are the two (different) occasions I have seen such a portepee and in both occasions it has been attached to a diplomat?s dagger.

As said I now could buy such an extremely rare portepee from an auction and would like to know if any of you do know/have any hard facts about this kind of portepee and if you have seen such a portepee beneath the mentioned occasions.

Naturally my portepee did pass an experienced blacklight test without the least problem.

Thank you in advance, regards,

58a.JPG (161.8 KB, 612 downloads)
59a.JPG (38.41 KB, 607 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Wotan,

Some years ago, Johnson sold an identical knot on a Diplomat dagger & listed it as a lower ranks portepee. I have the pics somewhere & will try to find them to post for comparison.

I've never seen one in hand but it's obviously a rarely seen item. Congratulations of finding something most of us will never see in this lifetime.


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wotan Offline OP
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Hello Billy_G, thank you for looking and your comment. The dagger with portepee TMJ has sold is the identical dagger w.P. that Wittmann has sold some time before. I have all pics of the offers in my files. So this is "only" one and the same portepee. which does make with the one I have seen out of a household only two in known existence...
Here TTWs and TMJs offers -one-and-the-same-dagger- compared (beside it has been heavily cleaned before offered the second time).
Regards,

TTW u TMJ.JPG (175.91 KB, 578 downloads)
TTW u TMJ_a.JPG (181.55 KB, 575 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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wotan Offline OP
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Hello gents, I can add some research results, unfortunately nothing which leads to further insights:

I did contact Tom Wittmann and he did remember the sale of the portepee/dagger and the showing of the photograph but could not remember any further facts and why he did classify the certain portepee as "lower grad diplomat s" portepee.

The certain portepee has the proper, delicate dimension we all know and love on true diplomat s silver portepees! Here a photograph for comparison. A common army portepee with the certain portepee and a silver diplomat s portepee.

Any help on the rare portepee would be appreciated. I wonder if really nobody of our bic collectorship has seen such a portepee beside the one sold bY TTW and JRBM:

Regards,

60.JPG (120.32 KB, 533 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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I doubt there's anybody who could show us any hard facts regarding this portepee, I think all that I can add is that looking at the construction, the size etc, I would be happy for it to be period and as the ball size matches the known diplo/Gov porteppe that it is someway related to them, quite what that relationship is I wouldn't know, thank you for showing us this rare knot.

Gary

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wotan Offline OP
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Hello Baz69, thank you for looking and your comment! Unfortunately it does looks like this is the way until now. But it is hard for me to believe that no collector has seen such a portepee beside the two known cases and that it has been worn and is no phantasy piece does proof for me the household find.
I did a lot of research and I could observe that this portepee has gotten attention in other forums but with no serious result.
I got the hint on a gov/diplomat expert and did contact him. He became interested in the portepee and will do his own research. If there is any result I will keep you all updated.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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To all
Sad to say, but key words are, OTHER FORUMS.
Seems it's just a mater of time.
It is hard to believe.
Ed

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wotan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ed773
To all
Sad to say, but key words are, OTHER FORUMS.
Seems it's just a mater of time.
It is hard to believe.
Ed


Hello ed773, the portepee has fetched attention obviously as it has been auctioned and believe me, what I have seen eg. at WAF has been mostly mockery, saying it s a phantasy piece, sure glowing like a christmas tree and such unexperienced, unserious statements....
I, for my person, stay at GD.C.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Woton
My sentiments also.
I have been on this site for about three years now, and have read about, and seen some fine pieces of third rich, I can not believe there is not some more comment on this portapee. There is a wealth of knowledge here.
A lot of high end collectors here, but the input seems nill at times.
I for one am learning, and at almost 70, it becomes hard at times, really hard.
This type of dagger and the accoutrements are above my collecting knowledge at this point.
Ed

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wotan Offline OP
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ed773, thank you for your thoughts. Concerning the portepee: It is for sure something very rare and obscure. I do collect since far over fifty years and have seen it the first time at Wittmann. Otherwise I would not have sought and bought it. So even other much more experienced collectors (Baz69 and Billy_G for sure are those) have not seen it or more of them. It is just a hope that any collector can give a comment because of accidential knowledge. Unfortunately, due to history, there are a lot of things we collectors don t know, especially in the -seldom considered- knot and portepee field.
I still dont give up and sometimes there is a result not before years after (eg see my hunting knife in the thread
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/~germand2/ubbthreads.php/topics/116468/unknown-hunting-knife.html#Post116468
where a special knife of mine has been identified after eleven (!!!) years by a very specialized collector with very few posts here, who did by chance come over the certain thread and the artist...
Regards,



wotan, gd.c-b#105

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wotan Offline OP
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Hello gents! First trace!!!

In TMJohnson?s and Wilfrid Bradach?s "Third Reich Edged Weapon Accouterments" is written on pg. 11: ...The Diplomatic ranks (service grades) were divided into four different levels..... 4.) "Beamte des einfachen Dienstes" (Official of lower level service) had three ranks. These wore the silver dagger with a black and silver knot.....!!!
The source should be "Beschreibung des grauen Tages- Dienstanzuges des Ausw?rtigen Amtes" ("Description of the Grey Day-Sevice-Dress of the Foreign Office").

If anybody of you have access to this source in detail (To the regulation. Not to the cited book which I do own) please let me know!

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Wotan, Great thread on this rare Diplomatic portepee. There are many mysteries still to learn in this hobby, this unusual and obviously rare portepee being a prime example.
When something like this turns up it's natural to most to say it's a fake or unknown, but certainly not a Diplomatic portepee. Why?, because they never seen one in person, or in a book, or on the internet.
Experienced long time collectors do further in-depth research, as you have. They ask the long time volume dealers if they ever seen one. Well, it appears that they have, as has been indicated by Tom Johnson, Tom Wittmann and recently Ron Weinand.

Next we look at the quality of the manufacture for further clues if perhaps it the item conforms to materials and dimensions of what we know and accept as 'period made' examples.
Your comparison photo next to a Army and G.O./Diplomatic portepee shows that it indeed is the proper size for the smaller portepee used on G.O./Diplomatic daggers.
Those that have researched know that there is yet to be found a period photo of one in use. Does that mean they didn't exist ? No, all it means is that we have yet to see one, perhaps one day we will, as in the case of the early so called HJ Honor knifes. We also know that there are period in-wear photos of obscure daggers that have yet to surface post-war. However, IMO one has to be open to a example surfacing one day as on rare occasions they still do. Recently at the last SOS a rare Army prototype dagger by Eickhorn walked through the door. It was snagged by a dealer and later was inspected my myself and several other experienced collectors who all knew it was 100% correct and very rare. Not one like that has ever been shown in a publication.

Recently on WAF a member collector bought a Diplomatic dagger from a grandson of the original owner that had this exact portapee attached to to the dagger. Thinking it was not proper (perhaps fake) he left the portepee with the owner who later sold it at auction. I don't know if links are allowed here, is so, I can link the thread here. A interesting story.

When at times I'm asked about something 'unusual' concerning daggers these days my reply usually is: No, I never seen one like that, but all that means is; 'I never seen one'.
Reminding the questioner that IMO, half of the artifacts have been either lost or destroyed during or after the war, so there are many items we will never see, doesn't mean they never existed.

Regards,
-Serge

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Sure, Serge, put up a link

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wotan Offline OP
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Serge, thank you very much for contributing and your deep insight how items really should be looked at to be verified or disowned.
I have had two experiences (one with the hunting knife already mentioned the second one with a "one-of-a-kind" cuff title of the Feldafing school where I did research for nearly a decade, not knowing for sure if it was period as there did exist already another cuff title for this school, now a period "wearing" pic did show up which does proof the cuff title to be period and worn; see the pics of the early cuff title, the later cuff title and the wearing pic) when after years something has been proven original so I am sure there will be a "wearing" pic concerning the portepee sometimes somewhere.
Regards,

Feldafing 1.JPG (99.63 KB, 352 downloads)
Feldafing 2.JPG (68.01 KB, 358 downloads)
Feldafing 3.JPG (74.56 KB, 353 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Originally Posted by Dave
Sure, Serge, put up a link


http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=965093

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wotan Offline OP
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Dear collector fellows, Billy G was so kind and did send me an excerpt of TMJohnson s series Vol.V wherein John Ormby s book "Daggers of the Third Reich" is mentioned. In this book, page 21 there should be of wearing such a rare black/silver diplomats lower ranks portepee.
Does any of you have this book and show here (or send me) this certain pic?

Thank you in advance, regards,

Johnson's original series, volume V.JPG (107.18 KB, 297 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Wotan,

I think the book misspells the author's name, just realized it's John Ormsby.


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wotan Offline OP
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Hello Billy G, thank you for the correction. If somebody knows the book I hope he will ignore the spelling mistake.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Wotan,

Haha, I'm not a spelling nazi, just if anyone was doing an online search to locate it, like I did :)


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Hello collector friends, there is a new update: In Jill Halcomb s excellent book "Uniforms and Insignia of the German Foreign Office and Government Ministries 1938-1945" this certain portepee is clearly mentioned on page 125 in combination with the well known but extremely rare Foreign Office Bayonet (although my knot did come without any doubt attached to a diplomat s dagger, worn this way during the period). There is also a somehow simplified (slightly out of form) drawing of the portepee on such a mentioned bayonet.
It seems also clear that the certain photograph used by T.T.W. is in the same book on page 187. But this photograph shows -at least mainly if not only- Gov. officials therefore I highly doubt they were allowed to wear this certain diplomats knot and I believe that the imagination of wearing such knots in this pic only arose due to the relatively bad quality of the pic.

Up to now I still would look for a photograph in which we can doubtless recognize this certain knot worn on any edged weapon during the period before 45 and I would also pay a premium for selling such a pic to me.

Regards,



wotan, gd.c-b#105

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I would think the flat wide strap would lend itself more to wear on a bayonet rather than a dagger but anything is possible. The fact this knot was found on a dagger directly from the original owner's family is a rarely found element of provenance, particularly on an item such as this since there are those that will never believe something unusual absent clearcut regulations.

Years ago, I acquired Jill Halcomb's book which came in a book lot, sadly I sold it off. I always regret selling books!


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Hello gents, here is the excerpt of the mentioned book. The scetch is somehow out of form but due to the description (black silver) and the whole color schema it fits perfect.

I still look for a "wearing" pic of the certain portepee/troddel. I look at each period diplomats photograph I can find in the net, but up to now no success... Would pay an absolute premium for such a pic!

Regards,

171a.JPG (54.29 KB, 183 downloads)
172a.JPG (31.24 KB, 183 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Very telling drawing, the design of item itself does lend itself to that of a bayonet troddel more than that of a dagger knot. The fact it originally appeared on a dagger is of no consequence since both sidearms are for the same organization IMO.


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For my 5000 posting here I did want to show something more special. After years and a significant change in laws I could gain the ORIGINAL diplomat´s dagger this certain portepee has been worn on during the period. Once dagger and portepee had been parted (it directy did come out of the household of the former owner/wearer during the period) because the former buyer of the dagger did not know the true purpose of this portepee. Now both are reunited.
Even more I also could get the promotion document of the person who has worn this certain dagger with this portepee during the period. Now we know, that at least at the grade of "Amtsgehilfe" (office helpworker) this certain portepee had been proper. The document bears the ORIGINAL hand signature of Ribbentrop(!).
It is said (in the hosehold) that there could also be a proper hanger (reputedly a black leather hanger) but up to now it has not surfaced...
I know that there is litte interest in these special things but for true collectors this might be a highlight. I personally have seen such a portepee only for 3 (or two, if one time it has been one and the same) times in the world...
Regards.

65.JPG (44.34 KB, 69 downloads)
75.JPG (82.02 KB, 67 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Wotan,

These are superb items in their own right but to be back together again is excellent to hear. It is possible some collectors will not have much interest in the obscure but these are the things that keep me in the hobby. The items of lesser knowledge, the less frequently seen and of course less known of.


I can say this is the only example I’ve seen of this knot type. I only wish it came in from of me! Congrats my friend, well done!


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Not only a amazingly beautiful Dagger with proper Portepee, but a wonderful piece of history as well.
I do hope that hanger surfaces, as the set should stay together as issued.
Wotan, you always show some amazing items, thank you.
Ed

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Thats really what this hobby is all about, Wotan through your amazing efforts you have finally solved the mystery of this knot and have graciously shared it with the collecting community, on top of that you have a wonderful set and document that would be the envy of every collector, truly stunning and I congratulate you on your amazing find.

Gary

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wotan Offline OP
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I am glad that this portepee did find appreciation by you, some of my most respected and estimated forum collegues. Daggers, swords, hewers are the main stockpot in our hobby but the small items like portepees, hangers, belt loops are the salt in it.
Thank you for your kind words, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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What a great set you are showing here, i love it!
Important to show the proper portepee with the dagger, great to learn more about these rare ones.
Thanks for sharing, appreciated!

Cheers,
Ger


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