UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Edged Weapons Accoutrements Forum Troddle vs Portepee

Beginner question perhaps but what is the difference between a Troddle & Portepee?

Translation of Troddel – German-English dictionary

Troddel

noun

tassel [noun] a decoration, consisting of a hanging bunch of threads tied firmly at one end and loose at the other end, put eg on a cushion, a hat, a shawl etc.


Unteroffizier(e) mit Portepee, also Portepeeunteroffizier(e) (transl. Non-commissioned officer(s) with sword knot), is the designation for German senior non-commissioned officers in the armed forces of Germany. The title derives from the French porte-épée ("sword bearer"), as senior enlisted men would historically carry a sword into battle.

History
Coloured sidearm tassels were introduced in the Prussian army in 1808. They were used as a decorative equipment and to differentiate companies within a regiment. Ranks below Fänrich were issued either the Troddel or Faustriemen depending on their unit.[1] The Troddel was used by infantry, artillery, pioneer, signal, anti-tank and supply troops, while the Faustriemen was worn by cavalry and rifle troops. Some units would wear honorary tassels of Russian red leather, to indicate their relation to the 1st Regiment of (Prussian) Grenadier Guards.[1] Unteroffiziere mit Portepee would wear tassels independently of their company relations.[1]



I don't know if this helps, but the definition of Troddel seems more like the WW1 type. I think Portepee is a French word origin. Troddel is probably a German word origin.
C. Wetzel

I found a video, and this person notes that Faustriemen is German for a sword knot and the Troddel is a bayonet knot.

He also refers to the Portepee as a closed acorn style knot for officers. https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...DDDDA50B1A5885D6ACECDDDDA5&FORM=VIRE

The above information:

"Faustriemen is German for a sword knot and the Troddel is a bayonet knot. He also refers to the Portepee as a closed acorn style knot for officers", is for an Imperial Germany (1871-Nov. 1918) time frame.

The person who posted the video has crossed bayonets with "Imperial German Bayonets" to the right of his videos.

I would say a good question that will take a complicated answer on who could wear what when.

--dj--Joe

I found some more information. I don't own a Portepee, but I could probably use about a 1/2 dozen.

On a Wehrmacht chart is a Portepee, a Troddle, and a Faustriemen. Another chart is for Reichswehr and Wehrmacht and shows a Troddel and a Faustriemen.

And here is the site I found these images: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Troddel_and_Faustriemen_of_the_Heer_(Wehrmacht)

Hello Wetzel, he can´t be right because eg. officers (or SSleaders) did wear the officers (dagger) portepee on their bayonets in case they did wear it (mostly in the earlier times, there are a lot of phtographs documenting this fact).And see the first chart of yours, the NCO troddel has also a closed acorn.

Generally we can say that portepees were worn on all edged weapons (daggers, byonets and sabers) only by officers and socalled "Portepee-Unteroffiziere", the higher NCO ranks who were allowed to wear the (officers) portepee. All others did wear Troddeln.
But it is not so simple because eg at TN there were special knots for those "higher NCOs" which had a silver thread within and inly colored knots for men and lower NCOs.
Army offier daggers, with portepee, were ONLY worn by officers and commissioned(!) NCOs (therefore a true officers rank) against in the navy or the air force all the daggers could be worn, with (officers) portepee also by NCOs "with portepee".
I myself wanted to clear the question long ago but found out that even "specialists" on knots in the different www forums did not know exact borders. Could also no find any substancial in the net.

Regards,

Originally posted by wotan

"Hello Wetzel, he can´t be right because eg. officers (or SSleaders) did wear the officers (dagger) portepee on their bayonets in case they did wear it (mostly in the earlier times, there are a lot of phtographs documenting this fact).And see the first chart of yours, the NCO troddel has also a closed acorn".


As I noted his (Imperial German Bayonets) video is for Imperial Germany (1871-Nov. 1918), predating SS daggers / SS bayonets.

The 1st & 2nd charts are from 1938, "Der Dienst-unterricht im Heere" (German soldier's manual).

The 3rd chart claimed a Reichswehr & Wehrmacht time frame.

I posted what information I found, wotan certainly knows much more about the Portepee & Troddel than I ever will.


C. Wetzel-20609

I found some more information with pictures from the Imperial Germany time frame (1871-Nov. 1918).

It looks like the Troddel & the Faustriemen (fringed knot) underwent a change after WW1 and then looked more like the Portepee (closed style knot) as shown in the 1938 chart.

This is from German Colonial Uniforms:

The Troddel was a coloured woollen knot, worn looped around the bayonet frog by other ranks and NCOs up to the rank of Sergeant.

Mounted other ranks and NCOs of the regular German army that carried a sword or sabre (such as the cavalry and field artillery) wore a sword knot known as the "Faustriemen". This consisted of a leather strap ending with a woollen loop above a fringed woollen knot.

Officers and NCOs above the rank of Sergeant ("Vize-Feldwebel" and "Feldwebel") wore a Portepee sword knot woven in metallic thread around the hilt of the sword with a closed rather than fringed knot. Hence senior NCOs were known in German as "Unteroffizier mit Portepee" (NCO with sword knot), while junior NCOs were referred to as "Unteroffizier ohne Portepee" (NCO without sword knot).

See attached period photos.

Thanks for the feed back.

I would like to note that during WW1 the Troddle (fringed knot) & the Portepee (closed knot) were worn on privately purchased Stag horn & wood handle civilian daggers.

Here is a link to a Russian site with WW1 period German Army photos of the Troddle (fringed knot) and the Portepee (closed knot) worn on these daggers. https://xn--80aaxgqbdi.xn--p1ai/publ/1/nemeckie_boevye_nozhi_1914_1945/8-1-0-861

I found a picture on German Colonial Uniforms with this discription:

East Africa Schutztruppe Officer
He carries a kS98 bayonet. Although officers and senior NCOs were entitled to carry swords, they often carried privately purchased bayonets in preference, the kS98 being a popular choice. As an officer he carries a sword knot rather than a bayonet knot on the kS98 however.
Photo © Frankfurt University Koloniales Bildarchiv