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Hello what is the verdict/opinion on F. Herder Rohm SA/SS daggers with the horizontal maker mark....? I thought the traditional thinking was/is that these blades were produced but never assembled....? They are NOT a listed maker of Rohms on this site or any other that I can find Rich Ab Herder is.....I remember that Tom Johnson used to sell loose F. Herder crossed keys SS blades I had a mint full Rohm SS F. Herder that Paul Hogle examined we couldnt fault the motto but considered the dagger to be unsellable and it was returned but the dagger looked great and period I have a friend who has just purchased a full SA F. Herder with crossed keys maker mark and F. Herder in line with inscription. These usually turn up on auctiion sites like invaluable etc. opinions welcome cheers and best Ryan S

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To clarify the dagger in question is a full Rohm SA with crossed keys logo and F. Herder same placement as F. Dick Rohm SA cheers

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Marked crossed keys F. Herder A.S. Solingen

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Ryan,

As far as I have ever seen, the horizontal version (along the blade) of the trademark (shown below) was only found on SS daggers. I have never seen it or heard of it with a Rohm inbscription, either as a loose blade or mounted in a dagger. Nor have I seen it on an SA/NSKK dagger.

And, I visited Tom Johnson many times and looked through his all his F. Herder SS blades. I do not remember a blade with the Rohm inscription.

Herder mark.jpg (21.79 KB, 124 downloads)
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The SA/NSKK version looked as shown below. It was produced with the Rohm inscription, but the trademark was the same as below and positioned in the same place on the blade.

I've never seen the trademark below on an SS blade.

SA Herder, F best.jpg (28.24 KB, 119 downloads)
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Thanks Dave I really appreciate your reply and help

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Dave, a few years ago, a blade was put up on Thomas' site. The description indicated that it was taken from the Herder factory, along with other blades, and was never assembled into a dagger. Here are the photos that I have.

30138-4.JPG (31.49 KB, 105 downloads)
30138-3.JPG (34.21 KB, 104 downloads)
30138-1.JPG (53.37 KB, 104 downloads)
30138-2.JPG (60.17 KB, 104 downloads)

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And here is a photo of Herder with a different location of the TM.

cKQeYbB.jpg (173.37 KB, 102 downloads)
SA8Qdv9.jpg (194.54 KB, 101 downloads)
uLMOYlX.jpg (135.47 KB, 101 downloads)
xz9Kx4x.jpg (200.17 KB, 103 downloads)

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Den,

Interesting photos of the SA blade. Unfortunately, I didn't look through the SA F. Herder blades at Tom's, only the SS blades.

Tom Wittmann did a presentation on SA daggers at the 2015 MAX show, including images of all SA Rohm daggers. The spacing on the blade you show is NOT the same as on the complete dagger he did show. I think Tom Johnson's blade were factory errors.

While I did not look at the SA blades, all the SS were factory errors. Some had bent tangs, some tangs were unthreaded and others had blemishes such as angled crossgrain or off center spines. Not major errors, but visible. The Herder emblems forged into the tangs were faint or disfigured.

As far as your second photos of the SA dagger, that trademark is too far down the blade to be credible .. at least to me. Do you know where that dagger came from ?

Interesting subject !

Dave

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The SA full Rohm pictured with horizontal motto is the same as my friends a leading and respected dagger dealer has pronounced them as being "fake" and I respect his opiniion/judgement unconditionally does anyone know what Tom Johnson and Tom Wittmann thought regarding this trademark and placement? Thanks and regards, Ryan

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I do not think either one would accept the SA dagger with the SS type logo even further down the the blade.

I would suspect that if that SA were available or we had excellent photos, it would be judged to be laser etched.

Den70 - Do you have better photos ?

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Unfortunately, this is all the photo that I have of this particular dagger. I found a couple more photos with a horizontal motto, but they also do not inspire confidence. Looks like laser etching.

DSCN8593.JPG (21.09 KB, 112 downloads)
DSCN8592.JPG (38.6 KB, 111 downloads)

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" but they also do not inspire confidence. Looks like laser etching."

I agree, Den.

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I remember being told that these blades with the horizontal MM were found as a job lot in a factory post war sometime and were all assembled with other period parts & none had Rohm inscriptions.
the one above as dave states looks to be laser etched, its not something i would have in my collection


Regards Sean
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Those transversal marked F. Herder Röhm SA blades are not 1933 made, but postwar production. Many are now found with attempts to age the blade, but their quality still look horrible.

In the case of the "normal", F. Herder mark, the blade is period, but with the Röhm inscription added postwar.

F. Herder never made Röhm SA daggers and you will never find a ground or partial Röhm by this maker, only these fake full Röhm's are popping up now and than, during the past decades.

Best regards,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
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Herman,

As I said on the first page, Tom Wittmann did a presentation on SA daggers at the 2015 MAX show, including images of all known SA Rohm daggers. He showed a photo of an SA Rohm by F. Herder

The spacing on the blade was not as shown on the first page of this topic by Den70 and he showed a complete dagger, not just a blade.

Dave

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Over the years I have seen several F. Herder full Röhm blades mounted in original daggers grips, Dave.

But, unlike for all the correctly identified makers of Röhm SA daggers, I still have not encountered a single ground nor partial Röhm SA-dagger, with whatever mark by F. Herder on its blade.
This is enough for me to conclude that they did not exist in 1933.

Best greetings,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 09/09/2023 03:47 PM.

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Herman,

I own a ground Rohm* SS dagger by Kober. I have seen only one other Kober SS dagger and it was a "partial inscription". I have not encountered a single full Rohm SS dagger by Kober.

It could be that SA Rohm daggers by F. Herder are as rare as SS Rohm daggers by Kober. Or SS daggers by Puma.

Dave

* There are enough traces of the inscription to verify it existed. It is in TW's SS book.

Last edited by Dave; 09/09/2023 09:30 PM. Reason: "F" Herder was "J"

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