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My advanced knife collector friend from Germany sent me pictures of a probable massive antique German forestry / hunting tool his collector friend had just acquired.

My friend from German emailed me: "PELZ", with his comments: "This is just out of this world" and "Unbelievable!!!!!"

The massive antique tool is maker marked "PELZ, Grafenberg". My guess is it was probably made about 1870 to 1890's, although it could be made before 1870.

The stag handle tool has an ax / hammer head, with saw, shears, and pruner blade, folded into the handle. The tool has a massive bolster with a lanyard ring.

I found another probably 20th century Big Game axe / hammer with blades in the stag handle, and it does not compare with the massive PELZ.

C. Wetzel-20609.

Image.jpeg (88.5 KB, 473 downloads)
Pelz, Grafenberg
Image (1).jpeg (85.29 KB, 471 downloads)
Pelz, Grafenberg
Image (2).jpeg (94.48 KB, 469 downloads)
Pelz, Grafenberg
Image (3).jpeg (101.41 KB, 470 downloads)
Pelz, Grafenberg
Image (5).jpeg (103.72 KB, 471 downloads)
Pelz, Grafenberg
Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 06/14/2023 04:20 PM.
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Probably made under contract for the Swiss Army grin grin

Sorry, I could not resist whistle Interesting piece. I wonder who carried it ?

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That is outstanding.
Ed

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Hey Dave, the owner lives in Switzerland.

Here are two more photos showing the other side and the weight of this massive tool.

Image (6).jpeg (45.68 KB, 454 downloads)
Pelz, Grafenberg
Image (7).jpeg (55.96 KB, 453 downloads)
Pelz, Grafenberg
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Awesome find! Thanks for showing it.

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OMG,, I'm falling for a inanimate object!!! laugh

That thing is awesome.. Every camper, every Biker etc. should have one of these.... - Is that in 'useable condition? meaning the blades nice and tight, straight, no broken blades etc.?


- C. W.,,, What is the current value of one of these in that condition?

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Gaspare, I am still researching this item. I am still unsure who it was made for or when.

The item appears to be in very good condition, some staining, some pitting, maybe some loss to the stag surface with no cleaning.

I don't think something this rare would ever be used by a collector. As far as "current value", I don't know because I never seen anything like this before.

The other item in the photo is an 18th century flint lock tinder lighter.

Could this be an item used by an Army, I doubt it, but I will keep an open mind. I am waiting and hoping to hear more from Germany.

Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 06/15/2023 02:48 AM.
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This is the other similar tool I found with auction description and is probably a low-quality example from the late 20th century:

Lot 750: Big game hunter's belt axe / hammer with combination knife and tools incorporated in the grip, approx 24cm L
Est: AUD 500 - AUD 800
Passed
Vickers & Hoad
November 12, 2016
Sydney, Australia

original Big Game Hunter's axe hammer with tools in handle.jpg (43.59 KB, 423 downloads)
Big Game hammer axe
H3607-L106881135 Stag handle Big Game Hammer axe.jpg (29.16 KB, 422 downloads)
Big Game hammer axe
Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 06/15/2023 04:55 AM. Reason: added a word.
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Late last night I sent an email to Volker Lobner, Frankfurt, Germany.

Volker Lobner is associated with the Frankfurt Museum and is in the process of finishing his 3rd book that will feature my Carl H. Glauth boar head Hirschfanger.

I asked him if he knew anything about the PELZ tool and sent photos too. Here is his reply:


Dear Calvin,

never seen such a tool before. May be for a carpenter.

Ask [email protected] Deutsches Klingenmuseum Solingen. They surely can help.



With best regards

Volker

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I received an email reply from Solingen, Germany about the PELZ tool:

Klingenmuseum <[email protected]>
To:
'Calvin Wetzel'

Wed, Jul 12 at 3:00 AM

Dear Calvin,

i´m sorry but we haven´t seen such a tool before also the company is unknown.

I think it is made in the late 19 or early 20th century.

Maybe made for a roofer or gardening, i don´t think for hunting



Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Lutz Hoffmeister

http://www.seminare.intern.solingen.de/signatur/signaturen/solingen.jpg

Klingenstadt Solingen · Deutsches Klingenmuseum · Klosterhof 4 · 42653 Solingen · Germany

Fon: +49 212 2583623
www.solingen.de

www.solingen.de

www.klingenmuseum.de

Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 07/12/2023 04:29 PM. Reason: Added PELZ tool.
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another great topic/thread.. Seldom seen, rare pieces, investigated.. Nice work and great to see!

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Volker Lobner of Frankfurt, Deutschland was not happy with the reply from Solingen about the PELZ tool and thought the reply may have come from an assistant or trainee:

"Dear Calvin,


Suppose that the man at Solingen had no interest in searching.... perhaps he is only an assistant or trainee.

I am not amused about this because

now we see that even Solingen produced this type of knives.....


Thank you.

Yours Volker"

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Originally Posted by C. Wetzel-20609
My advanced knife collector friend from Germany sent me pictures of a probable massive antique German forestry / hunting tool ...

The massive antique tool is maker marked "PELZ, Grafenberg".
My guess is it was probably made about 1870 to 1890's, although it could be made before 1870.

...

C. Wetzel-20609.

Thank you for sharing inforrmation on this unusual, massive / oversize tooling of 'probable' German origin.

Why are Mr. Kaeshammer (I am referring his name to your 'Verlangerungsmesser thread) or you assuming the origin of this tool in Germany?
I agree that the term 'Grafenberg' probably is of German language (literally translated 'earl's hill' / 'count's hill').
Anyway a 'Grafenberg' location might be or have been somewehre else in German speaking Europe: Austria-Hungaria including Bohemia (with an outstanding cutlery industry), post WW I Austria, or even Switzerland.

The "PELZ Grafenberg" markings definitively makes me research my records of cutlery industry:
if I remember right a collector friend from the US corresponded with me in regards to a large 'GRAFENBERG' marked knife sometime in the mid/end 1980s, he had linked the mark in question with Graefrath Broths (Gebr. Graefrath) cutler in Solingen.

chevalier23

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Hallo Chevalier,

it was my idea for the use of the words "probable" and "German". Herr Kashammer only noted the markings and his reaction to viewing this PELZ tool.

When doing research on Ancestry.com I have learned to use the words "probably" and "maybe" when we are not quite sure about the facts.

The owner lives in Switzerland but does buy items from other countries.

Here are some locations for the name Grafenberg:

Grafenberg - Wikipedia

Grafenberg may mean:
• Düsseldorf-Grafenberg, a borough of Düsseldorf
• Grafenberg (Reutlingen), a town in Baden-Württemberg, Germany
• Grafenberg (Strengberg), a village in Austria

Chevalier I am thankful for your help with this research and would like to see similar tools.

Herr Kashammer emailed me that there is a woman who collects antique European gardener tools and pruner knives who wanted to buy the PELZ tool.

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I now believe the PELZ tool is probably for Gardening.

Probably for use in the Vineyards.

Web capture_15-7-2023_12510_www.christies.com.jpeg (38.83 KB, 320 downloads)
19th century Gardening tools.
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Wetzel,

Yes that's correct but also are made for camping as well. Out door tool for sure.

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Mikee,

I believe the modern examples are sold for camping / survival.

I have another update on the PELZ tool. My friend in Germany informed me there are initials on the hammer head.

He now thinks the initials on the PELZ took may be for a Lumber worker or Lumber company.

The initials are reversed so if struck on wood would leave a mark that looks to me like the initials T S

"Research is subject to change", a quote by Mildred Clark.

IMG_1523.jpg (71.49 KB, 303 downloads)
PELZ tool, showing the hammer head.
Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 07/16/2023 05:20 PM. Reason: Added "looks to me". because I am not sure.
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Hey Wetzel

Yes I agree modern ones made for camping and the out doors.

Exactly and you can always tell by the business end of a hammer..that looks like a heavy log marking hammer. Nice!

In Germany the foresters used a Baumreisser for marking trees with an X to be cut. Now a days it's paint and tags for the most part ..Best!

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Just found this U. S. Forestry image of 1939 with this caption:

Marking a Tree - 1939
This ranger removed some bark with the cutting edge of his hatchet and then stamped "US" with the other side to mark the tree.

Photo taken in 1939 by W. H. Shaffer. Credit: USDA Forest Service, Coconino National Forest

Web capture_16-7-2023_145232_www.flickr.com.jpeg (65.48 KB, 288 downloads)
Marking a Tree-1939
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Here is a 19th century Timber Merchant's or Forester's marking ax with saw. Very similar to the PELZ tool.

597-10-1893_468x382 19th century Forestry marking ax with saw.jpg (32.84 KB, 268 downloads)
19th century Timber Merchant's or Forester's marking ax with saw.
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Originally Posted by C. Wetzel-20609
Hallo Chevalier,

it was my idea for the use of the words "probable" and "German". Herr Kashammer only noted the markings and his reaction to viewing this PELZ tool.

When doing research on Ancestry.com I have learned to use the words "probably" and "maybe" when we are not quite sure about the facts.

Here are some locations for the name Grafenberg:

Grafenberg - Wikipedia

Grafenberg may mean:
• Düsseldorf-Grafenberg, a borough of Düsseldorf
• Grafenberg (Reutlingen), a town in Baden-Württemberg, Germany
• Grafenberg (Strengberg), a village in Austria
.

Hello C. Wetzel,
I hope that I did not offend you with my question '... assuming the origin of this tool in Germany?'.
Thank you for clearing that no facts for a possible location of the cutler / tool maker in question are available so far.

By chance I was born in Duesseldorf and know the borough of Grafenberg. While researching for cutlery, knives and toolings from Grafenberg or Graefenberg I was directed to that Duesseldorf location frequently.
I never succeeded with matching information ... and I doubt that a cutler of such impressive toolings might have setteled in that location just 20 miles away from Solingen.

I will continue digging in my records concerning other possible locations.


Originally Posted by Mikee
... In Germany the foresters used a Baumreisser for marking trees with an X to be cut. Now a days it's paint and tags for the most part ..Best!

Correct, Mikee.
I hope you will enjoy the following illustration of 'Baumreisser' bladed toolings:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by chevalier2022; 07/17/2023 07:21 PM.
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Chevalier, I am not offended by your comments at all, and I thank you for your comments and questions.

I have one more fact about the PELZ tool. My friend thinks that the owner from Switzerland, bought this tool from an auction house in East Germany.

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Originally Posted by C. Wetzel-20609
...I have one more fact about the PELZ tool. My friend thinks that the owner from Switzerland, bought this tool from an auction house in East Germany.

Thank you for this additional information. It may direct the toolmaker's / cutler's location possibly to Bohemia.

I will go ahead in researching soon.
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Chevalier,

Oh heck ya! Awesome! Thank you.

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Wetzel,

Can you get a clear closeup picture of the maker mark on the marking hammer? Thank you

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Mikee, I can ask.

The picture with the saw folded out shows the maker's mark on the saw blade, and on the blade of the pruning knife blade, if you click on the picture, use zoom and drag image.

"PELZ" over "Grafenberg".

It looks like the pruning shears are only marked "PELZ".

Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 07/22/2023 05:22 PM. Reason: added drag image.
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I am pleased to up-date my information in regards to the outstanding 'PELZ - GRAFENBERG' tooling.
Anyway these news are just one additional step fur follow-up researches.

C. Wetzel already suggested three possible „GRAFENBERG“ locations which might fit for researches in this matter:

Originally Posted by C. Wetzel-20609
Here are some locations for the name Grafenberg:
Grafenberg - Wikipedia
Grafenberg may mean:
• Düsseldorf-Grafenberg, a borough of Düsseldorf
• Grafenberg (Reutlingen), a town in Baden-Württemberg, Germany
• Grafenberg (Strengberg), a village in Austria ...

Way back home from a trip to the German State of Bavaria I had the opportunity to visit a friend in the northern part of Bavaria named „Frankenland“.
Road signes showed up a village of „GRÄFENBERG“ close to my final destination.
It is a fact that the German ‚Umlaut A“ letter with two dots on top of the letter A are not necessarily used on markings for export pupse.
During my stay we made a trip to this provincial town of Gräfenberg with c.4000 inhabitants.
Part of the historic town wall has survived and an the east side town gate https://schmuckziegel.info/auszeichnungen/detail/?object=269
is showing up this nice painting with a blacksmith, his anvil with a chaine with a sword … a possible proof for a previos knife maker ?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Unfortunately further researches failed, no proof for a ‚PELZ‘ name in regards to a blacksmith, a forge or a toolmaker couod be found.

I will keep on digging!

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I noticed two typing errors in my previous post.Please apologize!
I corrected them in this following text:

Originally Posted by chevalier2022
I am pleased to up-date my information in regards to the outstanding 'PELZ - GRAFENBERG' tooling.
Anyway these news are just one additional step FOR follow-up researches.

C. Wetzel already suggested three possible „GRAFENBERG“ locations which might fit for researches in this matter:

Originally Posted by C. Wetzel-20609
Here are some locations for the name Grafenberg:
Grafenberg - Wikipedia
Grafenberg may mean:
• Düsseldorf-Grafenberg, a borough of Düsseldorf
• Grafenberg (Reutlingen), a town in Baden-Württemberg, Germany
• Grafenberg (Strengberg), a village in Austria ...

Way back home from a trip to the German State of Bavaria I had the opportunity to visit a friend in the northern part of Bavaria named „Frankenland“.
Road signes showed up a village of „GRÄFENBERG“ close to my final destination.
It is a fact that the German ‚Umlaut A“ letter with two dots on top of the letter A are not necessarily used on markings for export pupse.
During my stay we made a trip to this provincial town of Gräfenberg with c.4000 inhabitants.
Part of the historic town wall has survived and an the east side town gate https://schmuckziegel.info/auszeichnungen/detail/?object=269
is showing up this nice painting with a blacksmith, his anvil with a chaine with a sword … a possible proof for a previos knife maker ?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Unfortunately further researches failed, no proof for a ‚PELZ‘ name in regards to a blacksmith, a forge or a toolmaker COULD be found.

I will keep on digging!

Chevalier2022

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Originally Posted by C. Wetzel-20609
Volker Lobner of Frankfurt, Deutschland was not happy with the reply from Solingen about the PELZ tool and thought the reply may have come from an assistant or trainee:
"Dear Calvin,
Suppose that the man at Solingen had no interest in searching.... perhaps he is only an assistant or trainee.
I am not amused about this because now we see that even Solingen produced this type of knives.....
Thank you.
Yours Volker"
I am astonished of such a statement by Volker Lobner who „… is associated with the Frankfurt Museum“.

The German Blade Museum assistant’s reply „… i´m sorry but we haven´t seen such a tool before also the company is unknown. … I think it is made in the late 19 or early 20th century. … Maybe made for a roofer or gardening, i don´t think for hunting“ is polite and complete.

Matching to the name „Klingenmuseum“ (Blade Museum) the focus of this outstanding ‚institution‘ is on „blades“ … knives, cutlery, edged weapons …“, but not on toolings.
Volker is stating : „never seen such a tool before. May be for a carpenter.“
Possibly Volker directed you to the wrong (?) museum.
I just asked the „Deutsches Werkzeugmuseum“ (German Toolings‘ Museum“ in Solingen’s neighbouring town Remscheid and will keep you posted of that museum’s reply.

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Chevalier

I agree, I thought the Klingenmuseum reply was a good and helpful one. And I must add they are all awesome professional people and always helpful.

Ha I also asked the tool museum a while back, no reply yet, they are very busy. Hope you get one quicker. I also asked a tooling manufacture company PELZ. Might not be the same company. I lost the info will have to find it again.I have to many things going on lol....Best!

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Volker Lobner was speculating about the person at the museum, Lutz Hoffmeister, his job title and his interest in researching this tool at the Deutsches Klingenmuseum.

I was hoping to get an answer from Museum director Dr. Sixt Wetzler, Klingenstadt Solingen, seen here at the far right.

Deutsches Klingenmuseum.jpg (95.74 KB, 229 downloads)
Museum director Dr. Sixt Wetzler, Klingenstadt Solingen at far right.
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Originally Posted by chevalier2022
... I just asked the „Deutsches Werkzeugmuseum“ (German Toolings‘ Museum“ in Solingen’s neighbouring town Remscheid and will keep you posted of that museum’s reply.

Chevalier2022

The 'German Tooling Museum's response has arrived by it's Director Dr. Wallbrecht:

" ... besten Dank für Ihre Anfrage. Leider kann ich Ihnen da überhaupt nicht weiterhelfen. So ein Werkzeug habe ich noch nie gesehen und eine entsprechende Firma ist mir nicht bekannt. ..."

Let me try to translate in English :
'... thank you for requesting. Unfortunately I cannot be of help at all. I have never seen such a tooling and a matching (PELZ / GRAFENBERG) maker is unknown to me. ..."

A collegue of Dr. Wallbrecht is off for vacation. He is informed on my request and will advise if he has any idea on that tooling or maker.

I will continue digging vintage German directories in this matter.
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PELZ - GRAFENBERG
BRENNER - GREFENBRG
BRENNER - GRAEFENBERG

No follow-up news in regards to the unusual oversize PELZ tooling.
Anyway I like to share two different possible 'location' markings of another unique and oversize multi-bladed hunting knife.
The two different markings on this BRENNER knife are confusing me, anyway I am convinced that this knife possibly has the same local origin as the PELZ tooling has:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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By chance I could acquire this gazetteer, being published by the Imperial German Central Office of Postal Services (Reichspostzentralamt).
This 1944 update is listing all Postal Offices, Postal Services, railway stations, wharves and airports of 1944 'Großdeutschland' (Grand Germany) INCLUDING (!) some surrounding, during the wartime 'captured' or 'merged' countries.
The blackened part is deleting the Swastika of the Postal Services' logo.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

On the map you will recognize post WW II separated countries such for example Austria, Czech Republic, and Poland.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

A listing of place names / toponymy is showing up several Grafenberg / Gräfenberg names, so far unknown to me as place name in Germany and not yet suggested by Wetzel's post #358510..
Possibly these names will be helpful for my follow up researches in several German vintage directories.

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It took an unexpected long time to research a matching pre 1900 location for ‚GRAFENBERG‘ / ‚GRAEFENBERG‘ / ‚GREFENBRG‘ terms, showing up as possible location of oversize tool & knife makers … and finally two more options of writing in German language for the identical location are showing up: Bad Grafenberg and Bad Grafenberk.
In my last post I already had the hope, that the illustrated gazetteer, being published by the Imperial German Central Office of Postal Services (Reichspostzentralamt) in 1944 possibly might be helpful for further researches.
Several Grafenberg and Graefenberg and similar named locations are being listed, one of the entries is showing up as ’Gräfenberg (Ostsudetenl), Freiwaldau‘.
1 - ‚Ostsudentenl‘ was the German abbreviation for ‚Eastern Regions of the Sudeten Mountains (Ostsudetenland), a part of a province named ‚Lower Silesia‘ of Prussia during the 18th century, ‚Duchy of Silesia‘ during Austria-Hungaria’s Monarchy, post WW I incorporated into Poland, during WW II occupied by German Armed Forces, post WW II again part of Czechoslovakia and part of the Czech Republik today.
2 - Due to these political changes the ‚German‘ name of Freiwaldau was being altered in the Czech language as Frývaldov until 1947, now JESENIK in MORAVIA. Part of this location is LÁZNÉ GRÄFENBERK.
3 – Quite confusing for researches is the fact, that another German city had the identical Freiwaldau name: located in the Dutchy of Sagan and part of Prussia in Lower Silesia, too, , then Germany (Deutsches Reich) and post 1945 part of Poland and named Godynice in Polish language since then.
There is a distance of only 150 miles between these two cities:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Back to Freiwaldau / Frývaldov / Jesenik: MORAVIA (German Mähren) is the most northern part of the Czech Republik, and the city of FREIWALDAU / JESENIK is located just a few miles away from the border to Poland. All my internet information on this location showed up its importance as a spa (due to several medicinal springs) such as this postcard (dated 17/9/1894 !) , listing the location as ‚Bad Gräfenberg‘ i.e. ‚Graefenberg Spa‘ but failed in regards to a knifemaker.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Other sources are indicating this region’s importance as ski ressort.
The final hit was a mid 1870s German Compendium of Germany’s Industrial Services which I discovered in a German State Archieves. It is listing the following entry under the city’s name of FREIWALDAU at that time with 1.350 inhabitants and a hamlet of Gräfenberg, famous as spa :
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Wow, that is a lot of research you did. It will only get us closer to finding this maker imo.

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I forgot to translate the 1870's business entry in that German Compendium of Germany’s Industrial Services:

"Messerschmiede" is in English 'knife forge' or 'cutler'.

And I am still curious to learn of that two cutler's intention for crafting such oversize toolings / knives!

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chevalier2022, if anybody needs an archetype for fundamental research - YOU are the man!

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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My advanced knife collector friend "Mr. K." from Germany sent me pictures of a pocketknife made by Brenner, owned by Horst Brunner.

He also sent to me, two emails after I sent "Mr. K." the new research by Chevalier2022.

1st email: "Hi Calvin.
Gräfenberg is really, really interesting.
These two makers (BRENNER / PELZ) are highly desirable.
I made a profile of them two or three years ago.
Maybe you could find out where the site comes from. I think it is out of a „Gewerbeverzeichnis" of that area.
As far as I can see, there were two knife makers in Gräfenberg. Wonderful.
Thank you for sharing, THOMAS."

2nd email: "This is the wonderful Brenner.
And he had the wooden bathtub as makers mark.
Gräfenberg was a Spa. And maybe still is. T
This knife was in the collection of Horst Brunner."

IMG_1014.JPG (69.88 KB, 106 downloads)
BRENNER: This knife was in the collection of Horst Brunner.
IMG_1015.JPG (68.45 KB, 106 downloads)
BRENNER: This knife was in the collection of Horst Brunner.
IMG_1016.JPG (83.56 KB, 106 downloads)
BRENNER: This knife was in the collection of Horst Brunner.
IMG_1017.JPG (73.77 KB, 105 downloads)
BRENNER: This knife was in the collection of Horst Brunner.
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I found this from ResearchGate:

Gräfenberg Spa, a small vestige of old Austria in the north-eastern corner of the Czech Republic. January 2006.
In the valley between the Reichensteiner and Altvater Gebirge lies Jesenik (Freiwaldau). About 2Km above its centre, on the sunny side is the spa Gräfenberg, once an independent place but now administratively part of Freiwaldau but physically still quite separate, a little "old Austria" Although hardly known today, around 1900 it was nearly as famous a spa as Karlsbad. Its fame was entirely due to a local man, Vincenz Priessnitz (1799-1851), son of a peasant, who developed cures by using cold spring water to heal various ailments, and founded the first hydrotherapy spa, well ahead of the now better known Pfarrer (Reverend) Kneipp. At first treatment took place in his home, but gradually more buildings were added. The most important one, now called "Sanatorium Priessnitz", was built in 1910 in Art Nouveau style; despite its later addition it still conveys the impression of old Austria. It is the most important part of a "spa landscape" which gradually developed. Apart from the buildings serving as both accommodation for patients and treatment centres, there is a bandstand and many walkways with benches for resting. But unique among spas are the numerous "monuments ", financed by grateful patients, at the approximately 60 springs. Amongst them is one financed by English patients in 1848. The largest is a monument of a lion by the famous Munich sculptor Schwanthaler, now used as the logo of the spa. After its heyday prior to WW I, Bad Gräfenberg, experienced a decline and it was only after the "velvet revolution" in Czechoslovakia in 1989, when it became a limited company, that a new rise began. Nowadays it is used by 12-15,000 patients p.a., mostly Czech citizens, but also Poles (the border is only a few Km away), Slovaks, Germans (mainly from Saxony) and others. During the summer months it operates to near capacity but there is a relatively low attendance in winter, despite the fact that there are good winter sports facilities. The positive development over recent years is also due to vigorous advertising and to the low charges compared to the major spas in the Czech Republic and elsewhere.

Authors: K. A. Sinnhuber

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Good Lord! that Brenner folder pocket knife might be a bit hunky but what a beauty!! I guess it now resides with your friend 'Mr.K.',,,,lucky guy!!


Thanks much for all your research and sharing it with us.

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"Mr. K." has told me about the knives and knife catalog collections of Horst Brunner, Switzerland. "When he passed away his collection went to the Victorinox Museum at Ibach, Switzerland".

"Mr. K." also told me "Brunner had also a tremideous number of Musterbücher". The BRENNER knife is probably at the museum, but I will ask "Mr. K." of Germany.

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Both C.Wetzel and Chevalier are awarded the Great Thread Badge for their significant contributions the GDC forums contents.

Congratulations to both !

Dave
Admin

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Thank you very kindly to the GDC community for the "Great Thread Badge".

"Mr. K." has sent me an email about the BRENNER knife: "Yes, it is in the collection of Victorinox."


Best Regards, C. Wetzel-20609

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Congratulations!

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Congratulations to our members C.Wetzel and Chevalier who are alwys on the go and are extremely exerienced.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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The BRENNER (old wooden bathtub) GRAFENBERG / GRAEFENBERG / GREFENBRG, maker's mark is not listed in Goin's 1998 edition or J. Anthony Carter's 2015 edition collector reference books.

Note the spelling on blade "GRAEFENBERG" and the sheath "GRAFENBERG" are different.

I remembered my advanced knife collector friend from Germany, "Mr. K." had told me about this high-quality maker over a year ago and noted one on the popular auction site for sale.

Listed as German 19th century hunting knife, this Jagdmesser is not cheap at $1500.00 USD.

Web capture_27-1-2024_18339_www.ebay.com.jpeg (43.54 KB, 163 downloads)
BRENNER (old wooden bathtub) GRAEFENBERG maker's mark
Web capture_27-1-2024_18171_www.ebay.com.jpeg (37.96 KB, 163 downloads)
Jagdmesser with BRENNER (old wooden bathtub) GRAEFENBERG maker's mark
Web capture_27-1-2024_18646_www.ebay.com.jpeg (42.59 KB, 160 downloads)
BRENNER Jagdmesser sheath marked GRAFENBERG
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On 07/22/2023 Mikee asked:

"Wetzel,

Can you get a clear closeup picture of the maker mark on the marking hammer? Thank you"

I brought up the original photo of the maker's mark on the saw blade, used the zoom, then "Web capture", then Microsoft Office Picture manager and here is the result.

Note that the maker's mark on the pruning blade is also in the photo. The mark maybe "PELZ" over "GREFENBERG"

Also note that the knife photo from Chevalier2022, shows "BRENNER" over "GREFENBRG" on one blade.

Web capture_29-1-2024_13397_mail.yahoo.com.jpeg (101.8 KB, 134 downloads)
PELZ tool, maker's mark on saw blade.
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Hey Wetzel,

Do you have an idea of what the picture mark is shown between Brenner and Graefenberg and on the last picture above Pelz? Thank you.

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Mikee,

as "Mr. K." noted: "This is the wonderful Brenner. And he had the wooden bathtub as makers mark".

The close up of the "PELZ" over "GREFENBERG" maker's mark looks like there may be some mark above PELZ, but I think it is pitting on the blade.

I will have to ask "Mr. K." if there is a mark for PELZ or just pitting.

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Great thank you

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From "Mr. K" in Germany:

"This is pitting. I am quite sure. Maybe there is a mark on other knives. This is the only item I have seen yet. Maybe there is one more coming in the future, maybe more informations on this maker. Therefor it would be helpful to look in the archives in this town. Pelz must have been a highest quality maker. Like Brenner. This tool is crazy! T"

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Great thank you

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Well, would you look and see what I found with the correct spelling of PELZ, GREFENBERG:

"the saleroom", auction of 25 May 2023.

Description:
Multifunctional tool
circa 1900, maker Pelz Grefenberg with crown, small hatchet, the head with strike initials "TS", in the handle are a saw, a knife as well as a pair of pruning shears, the handle scales made of horn, at the end of the handle fluted grip cheeks, very high-quality workmanship, slight signs of age, l total 28 cm.

Multifunktionswerkzeug
um 1900, Hersteller Pelz Grefenberg mit Krone, kleines Beil, der Kopf mit Schlaginitialen "TS", im Griff befinden sich eine Säge, ein Messer sowie eine Strauchschere, die Griffschalen aus Horn, am Griffende kannelierte Griffbacken, sehr qualitätvolle Verarbeitung, geringe Altersspuren, L ges. 28 cm.

C. Wetzel-20609 notes: A "Crown" mark or pitting? let's see what "Mr. K" thinks of the last photo, it could still be pitting, and the seller could be mistaken but the bottom of the "Crown" looks straight. To quote Mildred Clark "Research is subject to change".

Web capture_29-1-2024_184712_www.the-saleroom.com.jpeg (89.25 KB, 149 downloads)
Multifunctional tool circa 1900, maker Pelz Grefenberg with crown
Web capture_29-1-2024_19218_www.the-saleroom.com.jpeg (54.65 KB, 146 downloads)
Multifunctional tool circa 1900, maker Pelz Grefenberg with crown
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I sent an email to "Mr. K." with the above maker's mark on the saw blade then sent another photo of the pruner blade I enlarged:


"I used the zoom on the original photo you sent of the pruner blade, then Web capture, then Microsoft Office Picture Manager and there may be a crown to the left of PELZ, GREFENBERG.

The seller noted there is a crown".

"Mr. K." sent his reply: "Maybe you are right. That could be a mark! T"


"Mr. K." then sent an email that he would ask his friend who is the owner of this massive antique Forestry tool, if there is a crown mark.

Web capture_30-1-2024_1835_mail.yahoo.com.jpeg (93.13 KB, 124 downloads)
PELZ, GREFENBERG, pruner blade
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I just received an email from "Mr. K.":

"Calvin you are right!!! There is a mark. I cannot belief it. W_ _ _ _ sent me this a couple minutes ago."


C. Wetzel-20609 notes: I believe this photo from the owner is the PELZ, GREFENBERG with crown mark on the pruner blade.

Web capture_4-2-2024_162121_mail.yahoo.com.jpeg (29.18 KB, 102 downloads)
PELZ, GREFENBERG with crown.
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It really looked like a maker mark to me lol that's why I asked so thank you much for following up. Awesome!

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Thanks to Chevalier2022,

for his outstanding research work on this Forestry tool along with the advanced knife knowledge of "Mr. K." and Mikee's request for a closeup of the maker's mark, we found the spelling variations of Grafenberg / Graefenberg / Grefenberg / Grefenbrg, and that helped further our knowledge of "Messerschmiede: BRENNER V. / PELZ E."

C. Wetzel-20609

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"Mr. K." sent an email and some photos.

His knife collectors club will have their SAMMLERTREFFEN (collector meeting) soon and will have a discussion of the BRENNER (wooden bathtub) and PELZ (crown) marks.

"Mr. K." has sent a photo of the BRENNER mark on the knife from the Horst Brunner collection in the Victorinox Museum at Ibach, Switzerland.

He also sent an image of an old postcard from GRAFENBERG and in the lower left corner can be seen a small, high back, wooden bathtub.

The "wooden bathtub" with the high back, seems to be a very small size and is probably for an infant or small child, unless it has another unknown use.

IMG_2103.jpg (31.83 KB, 69 downloads)
BRENNER mark on the knife from the Horst Brunner collection in the Victorinox Museum at Ibach, Switzerland.
IMG_2107.jpg (54.99 KB, 65 downloads)
Old postcard from GRAFENBERG and in the lower left corner can be seen a wooden bathtub.
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Wetzel,

IMO the Graefenberg with wooden bathtub mark and the Grefenberg with crown mark are two different manufacturers. They both have different registered trade marks.



On the postcard under the bath tub picture.What is written?

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Mikee posted: "IMO (in my opinion) the Graefenberg with wooden bathtub mark and the Grefenberg with crown mark are two different manufacturers." "They both have different registered trade marks."

This is correct, as 1st noted on the previous page by Chevalier2022, these two makers are listed (Circa mid-1870's) as "MESSERSCHMIEDE: BRENNER V. / PELZ E." in Freiwaldau (now JESENIK, a town in the Czech Republic).

Grafenberg is a small hamlet of Freiwaldau.

The postcard writting under the wooden objects, appears to be "Verlag M. J. Goitwald, Freiwaldau" (Publisher M. J. Goitwald, Freiwaldau).

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I found the association between the wooden bathtub and Grafenberg is the spa at Grafenberg.

Vincenz Priessnitz (1799-1851), son of a peasant, who developed cures by using cold spring water to heal various ailments and founded the first hydrotherapy spa at Grafenberg.

I found there is a You Tube video, and in the video, it shows an actor as Vincenz Priessnitz offering a brush to a woman in a wooden high back bathtub.

Web capture_7-2-2024_171517_www.bing.com.jpeg (27.94 KB, 34 downloads)
You Tube video, an actor as Vincenz Priessnitz offering a brush to a woman in a wooden high back bathtub.
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Wetzel,

Awesome, it has all come together.

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