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#358075 05/17/2023 03:09 PM
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The German Military Fundforum is a great military collecting sites for those that speak/understand German.. I go on occasionally. They have a nice sized Ring / jewelry forum!

You've seen this before from me and here it is again.. I like Honor Rings.. When I was 11 years old I had one for about 2 weeks!,,anyway.. - I like the variety of PP rings.

By no means am I a 'expert' on the HR,,I'm not even a very big enthusiast on them... So I do my reading on them when new material comes out etc. and continue to admire them and how cool they are !!

- So recently this ring goes on the Fundforum.. Came with a box,,a bunch of documents,,and a bunch of postwar [57] reissued medals to him..
- Looks in great shape.. At first I didn't like the 'engraving' Looked like it was scratched in. The infamous 'die' or mold flaw looked a little weird to me also. But what do I know?!

You enthusiasts,,guys that collect,,guys that study,,,am I just being to strict? to cautious? Does this look good :

Some of the outer photos:

HR.jpg (32.49 KB, 357 downloads)
HR7.jpg (179.35 KB, 358 downloads)
HR8.jpg (48.31 KB, 358 downloads)
HR9.jpg (222.71 KB, 357 downloads)
Gaspare #358076 05/17/2023 03:18 PM
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Here are some photos of the inner band...........................

- What you guys think? A fine great condition piece?,,or something that needs to be looked into,, be suspicious?

HR5.jpg (68.61 KB, 354 downloads)
HR4.jpg (77.01 KB, 355 downloads)
HR3.jpg (99.74 KB, 354 downloads)
HR2.jpg (14.8 KB, 355 downloads)
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Gaspare #358077 05/17/2023 03:43 PM
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For me, it just seems something is "off" on it. I think it may be one of the rings that needs a hands on inspection. The engraving does not look well executed based on the exterior features.
Just my opinion.

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Gaspare #358078 05/17/2023 04:20 PM
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it looks more like a copy, there are no traces of manual processing from the outside of the ring, and these moments are on all the rings, the photos are so bad that it arouses suspicion, it’s the 21st century on the street, the cameras on the phones are good everywhere, but the pictures seem to be taken 20 years ago...
I don't like this ring.
don't like the skull either and his detailes.
Photo engravings are very bad to understand something

Last edited by Evgeniy; 05/17/2023 04:22 PM.
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Gaspare #358079 05/18/2023 01:13 AM
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I'm not a specialist with the Honor ring. My thing is Private Purchase.. BUT,,this looked funky to me when I first saw it.. SO, so far you guys are not liking it either.. Wouldn't be the first time a counterfit got put in with a bunch of wartime stuff and documentation... OR maybe I'm reading it wrong as my German is non existent! and they know its not good [?].

Any other opinions?? I'm going to post this/our link over there and see what comments we get! Link below,,have a look!!



https://www.militaria-fundforum.de/forum/index.php?thread/1009519-totenkopfring-nachlass-ritterkreuztr%C3%A4ger/

https://www.militaria-fundforum.de/forum/index.php?thread/1009519-totenkopfring-nachlass-ritterkreuztr%C3%A4ger/&pageNo=2#post5344115

Last edited by Gaspare; 05/18/2023 01:19 AM.
Gaspare #358083 05/18/2023 02:11 PM
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JR Offline
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Looks like the real deal in the photos provided here.
Is there a photo of the other side of the ring, Gaspare?

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Gaspare #358084 05/18/2023 02:24 PM
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I stay with JR and I wouldn't discharge it so fast like a copy.

That said, better pics would help to definitely judge.

Rico

Gaspare #358090 05/19/2023 03:59 PM
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- JR / Ric,,,,,thats why I posted it here... I had a email from a member of Fundforum and said I like HRs but by no means a specialist in them so I posted here...


- - - - its a pain to resize etc.the photos to get them to fit here properly... - * Copy and paste either of those links above and you'll see all the photos,,documents,,his 57 Knights Cross etc.

Gaspare #358091 05/19/2023 05:22 PM
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I can't see anything in those links. All I see is in german but pics aren't showing. Is there something else to do to see pics on that site?

Gaspare #358104 05/19/2023 09:04 PM
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I will try resizing tonight,,,it will take a bit..

Gaspare #358108 05/20/2023 12:49 AM
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Here's a few more I cleaned up a bit ,cropped to fit etc.. Hopefully these will help. :

The engraving looks real scratchy / low quality...

HR15.jpg (47.47 KB, 271 downloads)
HR14.jpg (65.45 KB, 269 downloads)
HR13.jpg (100.64 KB, 270 downloads)
HR10.jpg (37.82 KB, 269 downloads)
Last edited by Gaspare; 05/20/2023 12:52 AM.
Gaspare #358109 05/20/2023 01:02 AM
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I still stand behind my initial post. Something just doesn't look right and the last pic of the engraving causes me more concern.

Gaspare #358110 05/20/2023 01:46 AM
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,,, I agree, it looks scratchy.. The number '3' above post is interesting too!

HR12.jpg (50.02 KB, 265 downloads)
Last edited by Gaspare; 05/20/2023 01:46 AM.
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Gaspare #358118 05/20/2023 07:07 PM
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It's the real deal. Period SSTK

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JR #358119 05/20/2023 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JR
It's the real deal. Period SSTK
And why do you say that? Any backup? With all the "flags", scratchy engraving, funny looking numbers, off center joiner line that looks terrible. How many period HR have you seen like that?

Last edited by Tanker; 05/20/2023 07:36 PM.
Tanker #358121 05/20/2023 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tanker
Originally Posted by JR
It's the real deal. Period SSTK
And why do you say that? Any backup? With all the "flags", scratchy engraving, funny looking numbers, off center joiner line that looks terrible. How many period HR have you seen like that?

All of the above is how you see the ring. The "flags" are your impressions, while on the other hand the ring is exceptional in my eyes.

Last edited by JR; 05/20/2023 08:08 PM.
Gaspare #358122 05/20/2023 08:23 PM
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That I can understand and agree with.

JR #358123 05/20/2023 08:39 PM
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2 JR
Not one argument FOR, just opinions that it's good.
Not serious.

Last edited by Evgeniy; 05/20/2023 08:40 PM.
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Gaspare #358125 05/21/2023 02:41 AM
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G,

thanks for the additional pics. I agree it's a good ring.

Gaspare #358127 05/21/2023 06:02 AM
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I like the ring too.

Gaspare #358128 05/21/2023 02:59 PM
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With the additional photos, it is a one looker for those know what to look for in regard to a period example. And about as mint as they come. Gorgeous SSTK !

Gaspare #358129 05/21/2023 03:34 PM
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I have never seen scratchy/uneven engraving like that nor the style of numbering. How can those be explained? What are others seeing to determine this as a "one looker"?
It could be real or not, but definitely would need to be looked at more closely.

Last edited by Tanker; 05/21/2023 03:38 PM.
Gaspare #358136 05/21/2023 11:22 PM
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Outside of the ring looks great. What do we know about the engraving (or the man to which it has been made for) thus far?

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Originally Posted by Mike (aka Byzanti)
Outside of the ring looks great. What do we know about the engraving (or the man to which it has been made for) thus far?
Mike what do you think of the inside and the areas I mentioned?

Gaspare #358139 05/21/2023 11:38 PM
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I’m seeing what you do, Ron- but I don’t know of any explanation for it myself. It’s almost like the engraver was unable to keep his hand steady at best. I don’t know of any other period explanation other than it was a bad engraving. As to the likelihood of that I haven’t a clue, except to recall various discussions over the years about Gahr master engravers and jewelers being very good at what they did as well as discussions over the SS being exacting in details as well. That of course doesn’t mean that didn’t happen one time or the other; a re-engraving? A later engraving done by an elder jeweler? Or maybe it’s late war and old Wilhelm who is awesome is also dead and plus doesn’t work on Tuesdays, so quality is down. Who knows?

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Originally Posted by Mike (aka Byzanti)
I’m seeing what you do, Ron- but I don’t know of any explanation for it myself. It’s almost like the engraver was unable to keep his hand steady at best. I don’t know of any other period explanation other than it was a bad engraving. As to the likelihood of that I haven’t a clue, except to recall various discussions over the years about Gahr master engravers and jewelers being very good at what they did as well as discussions over the SS being exacting in details as well. That of course doesn’t mean that didn’t happen one time or the other; a re-engraving? A later engraving done by an elder jeweler? Or maybe it’s late war and old Wilhelm who is awesome is also dead and plus doesn’t work on Tuesdays, so quality is down. Who knows?
A tough weekend with too many beers:)

Gaspare #358142 05/21/2023 11:40 PM
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Now that I can relate to :))

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Gaspare #358144 05/22/2023 05:13 PM
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I see what many see,, scratching , almost unprofessionally engraving,,Eyes weird,,crossbones a bit weird,, left side rune flaw looks off.... But I'm no specialist as mentioned,, -
- send me a nice SA,, skull,, patriotic ring, anyday over one of them! Well I'm glad some of you like it and feel confident in your assessment.. Thank you...

Gaspare #358153 05/23/2023 08:44 AM
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I don’t understand how it is possible to discuss the originality of the ring from such angles and bad photos, the appearance of the ring is not shown: there are many very important places there, including traces of manual processing.
There is no photo of the skull, it also has traces of manual refinement.
Bad photos (not informative) on engraving.
And still, there are people who say that the ring is good.
There are no normal photos, how can you say something definite from such photos?
Or someone does not understand the issue of these rings, or simply makes unconsidered statements ...

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Gaspare #358154 05/23/2023 02:42 PM
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I agree 100%

Gaspare #358155 05/23/2023 04:35 PM
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Looking at that engraving, features suggest an engraving made with ring already seamed.....while typical Gahr engraving suggest they usually made it on ring still open and flat.


Conseguently we can have 3 assumptions :


1) the ring is a super fake by casting , so they had no chance than to engrave it that way


2) the ring is original, but for some reason it was re-engraved........postwar ?


3) Gahr engraver had a very bad day.....


Ric

Last edited by Ric Ferrari; 05/23/2023 04:37 PM.
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Gaspare #358161 05/24/2023 10:22 AM
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2Ric
I think that the original rings were not made with a plate and then twisted, the blanks are quite thick and it is very difficult to bend them. I am sure that at least all the rings of the 40s were already cast in the form of a large ring, which was then adjusted to the desired size by cutting off excess leaves.
It’s easier to manufacture than twisting a ring - firstly and secondly, it’s difficult to straighten even a twisted workpiece into an even circle, you can’t do it with your hands, you need to use a hammer or something like that, but then dents remain, so the 40x rings were definitely not made in the form of a strip.
Look how much my production practice gives me, you can see what was done and how, there is nothing to invent smile

P.S, more then, I now engrave assembled rings, I assure you, the rings were engraved assembled, do not see the old and unreliable bikes.

Last edited by Evgeniy; 05/24/2023 10:24 AM.
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Evgeniy #358191 05/31/2023 09:20 PM
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Has anyone actually seen this ring in person? Would be interesting to hear their assessment.

Gaspare #358218 06/06/2023 11:48 AM
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We don't know how gahr did the engraving [open or closed]. But he did know who the ring was going to so they very well could have engraved when open..


I don't know what happened to this ring Tanker. Its on the German forum and I have my hands full with English! smile

Really,,, for me it looks weird. Eye sockets and other thing. Some tings look ok.. But more bad then good for me..

Gaspare #358222 06/06/2023 12:24 PM
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just checked.

They all seem to love it.. For those that can read German have a look even if you can't see photos..

Its a safe free to join site so maybe join and look around!

I am not fluent in German. I think there is something about a 'restoration' on the box.. So that too would probably would need a in hand check[?]


https://www.militaria-fundforum.de/forum/index.php?thread/1009519-totenkopfring-nachlass-ritterkreuztr%C3%A4ger/&pageNo=4

Last edited by Gaspare; 06/13/2023 03:41 AM.
Gaspare #358227 06/06/2023 02:40 PM
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Thanks G
Appreciate the update. Ron

Gaspare #358252 06/08/2023 03:03 PM
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G,

Is it for sale/ The link isn't working. Thanks

Mikee #358278 06/11/2023 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikee
G,

Is it for sale/ The link isn't working. Thanks

According to the thread: No.


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Gaspare #358299 06/12/2023 03:50 PM
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Wotan,,, from the photos there what do you think of the ring?

Gaspare #358300 06/12/2023 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Wotan,,, from the photos there what do you think of the ring?

I would not have made a statement if you would not have asked, I don´t want be involved in endless, useless debates. For me this ring (and it´s box) is a one-looker original one. I do own several rings and boxes and have between 300 to 400 rings in my files. Collectors often forget or neglect that these rings have been produced through several years, years of peace, years of war and late war and by different workers/artists. You can see that on certain periods the quality of rings or the quality of engravings (or both) lacks and gets better again lateron. My assumtion is that in these periods workers at Gahr have been called up and an unexperienced, unskilled worker took over and did improve during his time.
Even if my assumption is wrong it is a fact that I have several rings in my files which are doubtless original and have such kind of shallow engraving. Also if you enlarge such pics you can see that these engravings are exactly done (recession, shaddow, beginning stroke, endstroke) like all the other well known and appeciated engravings but only a little shallow (or let us say better: fine).
We also might not forget that these engravings and the enhancing of the outside of the rings was done per hand and each artist might have better and not so good days.
Also the box is a doubtless original only missing one certain feature (a black band on the upper part). It is slightly restored (the later attached adhesive tape has been removed, perhaps color is also restored on some small parts) and is still collectible and rare as a hen´s teeth.

Just my 2ct.

Regards,


PS.: The rings were engraved in closed state, this is prooved by all engravers I have spoken with and can also be seen in the engraving itselve if you do study it carefully.


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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