UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Brown 1st Luft dagger

Hi,first time at this so here goes.Is there any reason that a dagger should be brown,grip and scabbard.There is absolutly no blue any where even in scuffed areas.Supposedly this was examined by a major dealer and author who verified it as a period piece but could not explain the unusual color.Any ideas on this.I'd appreciate any enlightennent.

Need them pictures!

Hello Rbt Lee Stevens!
First let me welcome you to the forum.
There is no permission required to post photographs. Each registered member (like you are) can post photographs but they have to be within a certain limit (I think around 90kb but I am not sure about this).
You also can send me the photographs at [email protected] and I will post them for you but please keep in mind that this will take some time.
Regards,

Trying to get those pics on

brown dagger pic

brown dagger

brown dagger maker mark

i believe this was blue at one time and all the pigment from the leather has faded to brown..

I agree with militarymania. To me it looks like fades too.
Looks like a late daggr with plated pot metal grip fittings, plated steel scabbard fittings and aluminium chain.
I felt free to show the other pics of your opened threads here and remove the other threads with only one pic each.
Regards,

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I agree that its faded
I would be tempted to take the chape off the bottom to see if the leather is blue under it.
But only do it if you feel confident you can get it back on.
Sean

I just saw one of these at the Dulles expomart in Chantilly and the seller said it was from the Condor legion. It had an unmarked blade and he was asking $2,000 for it. Any thoughts on this?

A wild guess....Retired Pilot?

Sounds like a great line for a dealer...."Mega-Rare-Retired Pilots 1st Luft !"

-serge-

I disagree with the thought that it was once blue leather, we would see some traces of blue around the grip wire, scabbard leather seam or at the fittings. Even the blade buffer pad is brown matching the color of the rest of the leather. Under the pommel would be blue as well if it was once blue leather. Just my 2 cents worth

Eric

Its a Holler trait I had one that wasnt as brown as the example in this thread and in certain light it looked dark blue/worn to brown interesting the seam on the leather was on the side not the edge of the scabbard just like this one.Ian Dale had pictures of it perhaps he will post them

Just curious, is that handle actually leather?

The grip is leather.The leather under the pommel is also brown as are the scuffs.The scabbard fittings are all magnetic .The crossguard and pommel are not and neither is the chain.The washer is an even brown on both sides and does'nt appear to be new.Would it help to remove one of the scabbard fittings?Hope this info helps.I really appreciate you guys helping on this.

Rbt,
Don't remove anything you might do more harm than good, that leather is old and would not take much to tare it by removing the fittings. It's original so leave well enough alone and enjoy a rare treat. I'm thinking this dagger is a shooting award if so pretty rare.

Eric

My two cents worth...we can't start creating "rare" daggers just because we can not explain anomolies...for my eyes the darkened areas closest to the top of the lower scarbbard fitting and near the centre are enough evidence to at least suggest that it once possibly was blue..I would feel a whole lot better in a "rarity" if the dagger were near mint or at least in better condition..the wear supports the fading theory..bottom line until there is photographic proof or other documentation the origins of the dagger will ultimately be what the consensus of the collecting community is willing to accept...and in this case I would hazard that to be an aged, tired and faded blue leather dagger...cheers, Ryan

Absolutely "aged tired and faded blue " as I said above its a Holler trait just as the scabbard lreather meets on the side of the scabbard not the lower edge its all in the details

As a collector of these 1st Luft daggers, I feel this was a normal blue and the fading is an event of too much sun, nothing more.

Mark

I agree with Mark. Like us Brits, too much sun turns things a funny colour.

I had a 1st years ago (12) and it had the same brown color.Not a well kept dagger and that was why I though nothing of the color

I want to thank everybody for helping on this dagger.I have three blue ones and since this one is kind of raggady anyway I'll dismantle it out of curiosity and probbably part it out.I do feel better that there were other faded ones out there.Thanks again guys what an informative response!

Why in the world would you part it out? thats insane

recover the scabbard anddye or treat the handle with Melatonian and you will have a decent dagger..cheers

DONT part it out Holler is not a common maker of thes daggers

Shoot man do not part this out!
Faded or a rare variant I do not know, but it is really cool.
We do not know it all, someday new evidence may surface about such a variant. To the collector of variants this is a prize. At the very least offer it for sale here at GDC, I'll bet you have a taker...
Regardless I thank you for sharing.

Wow,Okay guys she will stay together. Thanks for those responses.I'm still learning and will heed your advice.Thanks again to everybody

Here are pictures that AJ were referring to. This one had quite a brown colour to it but hard to tell in the photos.
Ian

www.simplydaggers.co.uk

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Thanks Ian it was distinctly brown in hand

quote:

Reply

Back at the 1st or 2nd Max Show, someone came in with a maroon 1st Luft. I'm not sure who the dealer was that bought it but I saw him remove the upper scabbard fitting and tip to verify the color. It had no blue dye showing. Before the show ended he put the fittings back on. I have no idea of where it is today

Back in the early days when there was a lot of stuff coming from the woodwork we would see on occassion a dagger that would not conform to one found in "The Book" (Atwood's) or any that one can recall seeing.
We knew it was original...there wasn't a question about it. Came right from the vet or had that "look".
Brian can tell you a story of one he found in a antique store.

Where are all these odd-ball pieces today? Unfortunatly most were probably "restored to textbook" by well meaning collectors/dealers in the last 40 or so years.
If you want to read about a 2nd Mod. Luft Generals Sword that almost got "restored to textbook" see Tom Wittmann's Luftwaffe tome when
he got one in to dye the scabbard "back to texbook." It had a fine brown leather on the scabbard too...guess what it turned out to be?
Ah this group knows the story.

-serge-

Yes, the one Notaguru refers to was a "walk in" at the 1985 MAX Show. Tom Johnson bought the piece and it was listed in his list "38." It had a blade marked with the Hoerster logo.

quote:

Book"

Yes there is a Red 1st.

3rd Drawer

Is`nt that a ultra rare "cammo" paratroopers dagger?

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I`m shure the dagger was blue before.
I had senn this an several daggers in bad condition.
I`t seems that there is a chemical process
who fades out the blue color 100% also under
covered parts.
IT�s observed by me from bad conditioned daggers, if anyone can show this color by an good conditioned piece, please show it here and i will agree "What a scarce special shooting price!"

regards
Medes

Medes could be right! I have seen this bleach out of the leather on daggers which have been stored on a hot and sometimes dump but otherwise very dry place like an attik. This environment might cause such a chemical process.
I have observed this certain brown not only on 1st lufts but also eg. on custom daggers. I for myself do not believe that all of these daggers were originally produced in a brown variant.
Regards,

So I guess that until all we have is faint recollection of one dagger that was a vet purchased walk in 24 years ago and a grainy enhanced poor quality pic from an old and obscure reference book the consensus of opinion will remain that leather, which is for the most part originally browny in colour, on some first pattern Luft daggers can age and fade to brown for a myriad of reasons..

Bob, it sounds by your comments above you still own one of these daggers or the one Tom Johnson sold. Any chance of seeing some photos? Doug.

Actually I have better than a faint recollection of seeing the maroon 1st Model Luft. Unfortuantely, I didn't get any photos of it or find out who bought it. I do remember the leather being in very good shape, not like the one which was shown at the beginning of this thread.

Best excample for fading is the one that simply daggers is showing.
This piece starts to get the brown color from
dark blue.
I think this one will become brown in a few years.

regards
Medes

Sellick,
The photo from True Magazine is certainly not offered as proof of originally, but rather an example of what such a dagger may have looked like as seen in magazines after the war. Most collectors that I have known over the years enjoy seeing what was published in early post war magazines, good or bad it adds to their knowledge base. The article reports on daggers that were in the collection of Norman Heilman