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#357113 01/26/2023 02:44 AM
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Duzig Offline OP
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I was wondering if I can get some info or comments on this flag, what it is, what it might have been for etc. I bought it for a fair price because the seller did not know whether it was repro or original & didn’t really know what it was for either. Apparently, it was acquired with a number of Hungarian uniforms so he surmised that it might be for the arrow cross, but that was just a supposition on his part. He said he did not know whether it was original, repro nor do I, but I bought it as I say for a fair price & figured it was probably modern, but again don’t really know for sure. If modern any ideas on what it would have been used for is appreciated also. There is a green circle around it which I have not found on any of the pictures of an Arrow cross flag, but I have seen variations in the arrow cross flags I have seen. It is roughly 14 ½ feet long and a little over 5 feet in width. It is completely double sided, almost as if two complete one sided flags were sewn together. It has a rip on one side and some soiling on each side, but not detractive. It is constructed of multiple pieces & very well constructed. Again, I lean towards it being modern made but really have no idea. I have attached some pictures including one using a black light(I know black light is not definitive for originality but someone else asked about it) Any help or info regarding it is much appreciated.
thanks
Duzig(Bill)

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Last edited by Duzig; 01/26/2023 02:46 AM.
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Bill.., That looks like it could be one of the designs of the Hungarian Arrow/Cross flag.. The colors are correct....There were many variations..
------ There are some hardcore nationalists in Hungary right now. Maybe its current[?]------

What are you using for the standard for the white/glow test?.. You need a good standard to measure against.. A washed white T shirt is best.. IF it glows the same as the shirt it means one of 2 things.. One,,it is a reproduction.. 2,,it was filthy and washed a few times post war to get it clean..

There is a lot of work there to be a reproduction,,,,but more complicated pieces have been counterfeited. - " it was acquired with a number of Hungarian uniforms ".. Were the other items authentic? Can you work backwards,,maybe a photo of the whole group before it got split up would be a big help if everything was authentic WWII..

You could do a burn test.. You have to use a few different threads [especially get one from the white]. Burn each thread,,you want it to burn in to a ash,,so it would either be Rayon or Cotton ,,both are acceptable.. A burn producing a hard black ball, quick like a fuse into a hardish ball = synthetic.. Everything piece being synthetic [really any piece] is not good... IF its hard getting a thread you can get a razor and make some shavings on the material. Nothing deep,,just enough 'fuzz' to make a good burn test...

Sorry if it seems more questions than answers,,,and some crazy tests to do... But do the white glow test, there should be a difference. , And,, the burn tests.. IF it passes both your looking good.....

, Good luck ,,and please let us know...,G.

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Last edited by Gaspare; 01/26/2023 04:01 AM.
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Duzig Offline OP
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Hello
Gaspare, thank you very much for your reply & information. I had found in my searches regarding the arrow cross that there were quite a few variations in the colors. A black arrow cross, a green one, I think I’ve seen a red one etc. but had not found one with a green circle around it so it’s nice to hear that the colors are correct. For testing for fluorescence I used a washed t-shirt as you mention for comparison against the flag. There was a noticeable difference between the t-shirt and flag fluorescence when I used the black light as can pretty much be seen in the pictures. I have put a few more pictures of the flag & shirt using a black light. What is the best distance to have the black light in relation to the objects? I ask about the distance to hold the black light because it does seem that depending on how close or how far I hold the light is to it makes a difference, to a certain degree. I have attached a few more pics, in one or two you can see the black light, & it is in more to the side of the flag & is about 1 1/2 ft from the flag. The first picture I originally showed using the black light, the light was held above the flag & shirt at again about 1 1/2 ft but above it.
As I mentioned at this point, just from the look of it, I kind of believe this is a modern made item but glad to get other opinions. I agree that whatever or whenever this was made a lot of work went into it but as you say other pieces have been counterfeited. Somewhat of an obscure item to counterfeit though, IMO. I will ask the seller if the uniforms and whatever else he may have gotten with them are original or what & inquire whether he has a picture of the whole lot he acquired available.
I will see if I can do a burn test on various parts of the flag & see what happens.
No problem with more questions being raised, I always like to get as much information on items I have so if I can find out whether it is original or repro, either way I appreciate the help & info. I have had a few people say it had a neo-nazi vibe to it & because of that they didn't like it, but I collect flags so I am not looking at it in terms of it being good or bad because of what it might stand for. Again, thank you for your help & info & I will post any other info I can find about it.
Bill

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Duzig Offline OP
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Hello again,
I just did a quick burn test with a little of the white, green and black thread. The picture I show is of the three threads before putting them to a lighter. You can see that the white thread really fluoresces while the other two don't. Strange thing is that none of the one's I burned, including the white, did not burn very fast nor did any of them fuse into a hard ball, when I rubbed them between my fingers they dissolved like ash & none of them were hard or fused into a hardened shape. I will try to do a better burn test just to see, but from the last pic I show where the white thread fluoresced quite a bit I again lean towards this being modern made. The thread was taken from the stitching between the green & white not the actual white flag part if that matters, which I don't think it really does. I do wonder in any case if modern what was it used for. Perhaps a neo nazi organization or a post war made item for a arrow cross reunion, if they even held something like that. As an aside, have you or anyone seen the movie "The Music Box" with Jessica Lange & Armin Mueller-Stahl, who plays a former member of the Arrow Cross organization who is put on trial 50 years after the war & is defended by his daughter played by Jessica Lange. In my opinion a very interesting and well done movie. I'll have to watch it again soon, who knows maybe this flag was made to be used in a movie, and maybe it might show up in the film perhaps. I know that arrow cross items are very rare so who knows what this one was made for. In any case thanks for your info and any other info or comments you or others may have. Again, it is appreciated
Bill

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Last edited by Duzig; 01/26/2023 09:23 PM.
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The tiny hand held UV lights are tough to deal with. They are good for a small piece of insignia etc. but if you don't have to hold it more than a couple feet away it'll work fine. The bigger the light the better.....

Whatever you used a difference is seen in these photos!


For such a obscure flag if they're going to the trouble of counterfeiting one like this they are going to use cotton and or rayon so yours could very well be passing the burn test..

Lots of examples to see when you do a search but nothing exact! I've also heard Hungary is /has gotten very tough on immigration with a few nationalistic groups.. They want immigrants to assimilate in to their culture not Hungary to become a big melting pot with nothing in the clear.. For a smaller country I also think it is important.. anyway,,

You still have the same 2 questions that might not be solved. Its either a rare excellent condition period flag,,,or a post war one maybe used for one of the hard line nationalist groups..

For me the only thing that would break it would be a nice photo of a large group of WWII Hungarian pieces and the flag right there! grin

either war,,it is a nice looking piece,,good luck with it and let us know if any new info comes up....,G.

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Duzig Offline OP
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Gaspare,
thank you again for your help & reply. The picture I put in with the threads from the flag, I took using a hand held small black light flashlight, the others were taken using a 24 inch black light.
As you mentioned I also see lots of examples of arrow cross but as you say not exactly like this. I agree 100% with you regarding the importance of a country not becoming a big melting pot with nothing clear. No problem on that end. I'll continue looking to find a flag like this or insignia with this exact symbol but as of now, I will classify it as unknown but to me most likely modern, but for what I don't know. It'd be nice to find a picture with hungarian items...and a flag exactly like this. I have looked at various sites with modern day neo nazi & fascist groups but again nothing exactly like this flag. I can't imagine someone made it just for the heck of it because it is well made & quite large. And either way I am glad I bought it. I usually try not to buy repro items but I do like unusual stuff and this certainly is unusual even if not original to ww2 period. If I do find anything else out about it I will surely post the info on here. Many thanks for your help and information.
Bill


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