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#176272 12/01/2007 12:12 PM
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Degens, The one I submitted for your site is dated 1939. Regards, Leipzig


Never fry bacon in the nude!
#176273 12/01/2007 01:30 PM
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pic

2006_0531430003.jpg (69.9 KB, 474 downloads)

Never fry bacon in the nude!
#176274 12/01/2007 02:33 PM
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Here are Fed's pics

Dave1.JPG (59.21 KB, 472 downloads)
#176275 12/01/2007 02:33 PM
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#176276 12/01/2007 02:33 PM
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#176277 12/01/2007 04:32 PM
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Thanks to Dave for putting up the images for me (and also to sdp over here, who also did some work on them for me).

The sole point I was trying to make with these images is that the word "Original" is a component part of the Eickhorn logo.

Of course, just to confuse the issue, the inside back cover of my 1970s Eickhorn Catalogue has a rubber stamped version of the 1936 pattern trademark - except that this has the word "Solingen" omitted. You can see it on Image 2, top right. Now what would we think if that version of the trademark appeared on a dagger?

FJS

#176278 12/01/2007 08:10 PM
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"Degens, The one I submitted for your site is dated 1939. Regards, Leipzig"

Doh....so it is Smile

#176279 12/02/2007 02:38 PM
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The idea that everything is explainable is interesting but almost impossible with many WWII items. This WHY seems to be THE most important aspect to some and if it does not fall into the right little slot they reject it. Absurd in my view-- as those with vast experience in the hobby VERY OFTEN see things they have never seen before--and there is no known explanation--and there may never be one.
Eickhorn probably used more different TM's than any other maker and the exact times for each are not known--just approximate times--and we don't know why. One more Eickhorn TM not normally seen on an SS dagger in the absence of any other repro characteristics should ,IMO, be no cause for alarm whatsoever.
The very vast majority of repros have SEVERAL "red flags".
Fred speculates that this TM and the "rat" type were post war etched to make parts daggers after the war. Now why would they use two totally different ones? No answer--and this makes no logical sense IMO,--just like a lot of other things--but they still exist.
So now we have two more dagger types discredited by the minority--and it continues. What will be next?


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#176280 12/05/2007 09:05 AM
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I have no problems with these variations in maker marks from Eickhorn.

I just see them in the light of a company's evolution, logo's change with influx from art and culture. The trends need to be studied more in depth, but generally within the Third Reich it was an evolution towards the more simplistic stylistic design.
This can be seen in all parts of the industry, and with dagger manufacturers we see the same also with the Henckels logo, - Big twins with name, then small Twins only.

Why should Eickhorn be questioned for using several logos on their manufactured merchandise?
In my mind it was just the way they developed their logo in their "marketing department".
The logos omitting the word "Original" just lead the way to a (in my mind also nicer) cleaner logo, ending with the very lovely Rat Smile

Just my 0.01$ thoughts... Smile

Regards,


Tor-Helge
#176281 12/10/2007 04:33 AM
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I just wanted to take a minute to thank all of you that emailed me in private to state that this dagger is unquestionably an original pre May 1945 example and one you would dearly want to have in your own collection. In answer to all who asked: NO the dagger is Not for sale at this time. I understand that some do not want to get involved in a public controversy and I respect your position.
I don't think these's much more that can be said here and as far as I'm concerned this thread can be closed.
Jim

#176282 12/10/2007 06:48 AM
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I am just now reading this thread and must add that in my "motel buys" from the mid-1980s and into the 1990s I found, DIRECTLY FROM THE HANDS OF THE ORIGINAL VETERAN, two "Eickhorn Rat Tail" SS Daggers-both M36 Chain pieces with no Eickhorn or Original or Solingen TM, but with the 941 RZM code. One with knot showing wear. I guess they must not be real?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria


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#176283 12/10/2007 01:32 PM
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That's correct Ron:
If certain individuals haven't seen one they're not real. You must have been hallucinating from breathing stale motel air.
Frankly I'm tired of this whole thing and would just prefer we drop it. When someone puts theselves in an untenable position I guess it's hard to admit it.
Jim

#176284 12/10/2007 03:02 PM
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A lot of good pieces get ripped apart here. Roll Eyes Wink

#176285 12/12/2007 10:39 PM
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FRED has contacted me and requested that I post this for him as he is having computer problems. While I understand what he is saying here, I must say that I disagree with his position as the daggers I bought from the veterans had definate wear signs and were issued and manufactured by Eickhorn during the late 1930s or early 1940s. Eickhorn's 941 code was used from the late 1930s into the war years and I believe that the "rat tail" TM was only used for a very brief period in the middle of these years.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Ron,

I have a computer virus which is stopping me from sending messages to GDdotCom. Simply put this thing blocks up the "Reply" Button.

Could you please assist and present the following dialog, as an answer from myself. The thread of conversation is SS Daggers - Transitional SS (Jim M).

Many thanks

FJS

DIALOG AS FOLLOWS:

quote:
Originally posted by Rob NL:
A lot of good pieces get ripped apart here. Roll Eyes Wink

Rob, we are not here to "rip pieces apart" - we are actually interested in the provable, and explanable, accounts for how something may exist within our collecting field - even though it shows itself to be different, or "breaks the rules". I, personally, am intrigued by the trademark variation which Jim M has shown. Jim M, quite gallantly (and with fair-mindedness) has made his case for the piece and his belief that it is totally authentic. I do not argue with this belief, because I know that Jim M is totally open and honest in his opinions.

Ron W has put up some interesting information - namely that in the 1980s and 1990s his Motel buys produced some interesting items. To wit: SS Daggers with the "Rat"-type Eickhorn squirrel - and that these were in Model 1936 (chained) scabbards; and furthermore, that these pieces came direct from the veterans who brought them back. (My own example was in a regular, unchained scabbard but still it came from a veteran).

There can be no dispute about this - if this is what some veterans brought to Ron W in his Motel buy, then this is what he purchased, and direct from original sources at that.
So working from the position that these were original, genuine, veterans bringing in the souvenirs they had "liberated" in Europe, then we must accept that these pieces really were available in the time that these veterans were present in Europe at around the end of the war.

So - here is the punch line: Ron W states that his pieces were obtained in straight forward deals with veterans; and that they were contained in M36 chained scabbards. We must accept this as true. Therefore, because we know that the M36 chained SS dagger was issued with a blade that bore no trademark, then these pieces with "modified" trademarks must relate to some other combination.
As such, I submit that the high possibility is that these chained SS daggers were in fact combinations of original parts, and newly finished parts, all constructed out of original pieces.

It is my suggestion that other trademark variations may well have been influenced by the times in which they were put together, rather than a design feature or trademark modification. I think that this has to be the answer, because I cannot believe that Eickhorn would permit such ad hoc variations to its trademark to have been allowed.

These variation trademarks have, in my opinion, been created by circumstances beyond the remit of the Eickhorn design and publicity department. I think that these trademark variations are real, and should be part of the Eickhorn dynasty - even though they were not officially sanctioned.

FJS


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#176286 12/13/2007 12:30 AM
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I agree with Ron as usual. We were there when these pieces came out of the woodwork and they are period, period.
Just because the word "original" was omitted is IMO no cause for alarm. So what. It is important to note that NONE of these pieces with this TM have been found to have ANY fake parts. That is VERY important in my view. Eickhorn used just a whole lot of TM's for no real reason that I can see other than just a new version for a new version's sake--and there are many overlaps in the time period each was used.

Now most know that even during the years 1943 and 44 all Solingen firms were running out of so many parts that they were unable to produce daggers. There are many period newspaper ads requesting to buy a dagger. So now Fred is saying that low and behold--right after the war, 1945 ish., Eickhorn came up with all the real parts to make these daggers for the GI's and just used post war TM's. Not just one but maybe even three different ones. So -did they have these parts hidden so well that even they could not find them when they needed them during the war? I say Hogwash! That theory does not hold water.
Fred also says we KNOW that the M36 was produced with blades with no TM--and while he does not exactly say so he positively indicates that that was the ONLY version produced. Well Fred, we DON'T know that the only version produced had no TM or rather no RZM TM. In fact, many believe some M 36's WERE produced with an RZM marked blade. We can't prove they were and you can't prove they were not.
So--here you are again trashing more daggers without any real proof and with theories that really don't IMO, and the opinion of most experienced collectors, hold any water.
And No, I don't own any of these daggers.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#176287 12/13/2007 12:41 AM
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Thanks for your words of support Ron and Houston. I have done everything in my powers here to provide any and all information requested. The only other thing I can think of is to gather up a seance whith the hopes of contacting Carl Eickhorn so he could personally set the record straight.
The one thing I've tried to stress, and Ron brought it up on his own examples, is that they show signs of honest wear. I have collected firearms my whole life and you can tell a firearm been used after only a few rounds if you know what to look for. This is also true of edged weapons again if you know what to look for.
If these were post war and sold as souviners it's ludicrous to expect honest wear signs to be evident.
I have a great deal of respect for Fred Stephens and we spent a lot of time together at this years MAX show and he knows that while I think he's dead wrong in this case there are no hard feelings.
Jim

#176288 12/17/2007 02:00 AM
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I found this Interesting Site which goes into very great detail regarding Eickhorn TM's ("Original" & Other TM's) on SS Dagger Blades as well as other Eickhorn Blades. It is well put together and Photo-Illustrated.

http://www.wardaggers.com/Eickhorn%20Maker%20Marks.htm

The more we see and are able to study - the more we can learn about our hobby. Txs, Dave/dblmed


[Always looking for TeNoSchumaTechnische Noodhulp Items...]
#176289 12/17/2007 08:10 PM
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What do you think of the "9" (and the rest) here?

Jesper

9.JPG (35.35 KB, 542 downloads)
#176290 11/10/2009 04:36 AM
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Another example of an Eickhorn Transitional SS without the word "Original" I think this is the 3rd one I've turned up recently. This example is for sale on the well respected dealer Robert Iqbels site:
Jim

nooriginal.jpg (27.65 KB, 386 downloads)
#176291 11/10/2009 03:38 PM
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Hi Guys!
Boy, Fred has done it again. These have never been questioned until recently. All of the most knowledgeable and respected people in the hobby have no question to this dagger. This is a gorgeous example by the way?!
Best Wishes,
Bob

#176292 11/14/2009 04:06 PM
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So going back and reading this topic again and if I understand Fred's post, these Eickhorn daggers whos blades were made without the word "Original", are post war assembled pieces? I guess kind of puts in the category of the Huhnlein dagger, all period parts but put together post war............ interesting.

#176293 11/15/2009 03:42 AM
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looks good to me man nice pick up

#176294 01/27/2010 08:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RFI:
Hi Guys!
Boy, Fred has done it again. These have never been questioned until recently. All of the most knowledgeable and respected people in the hobby have no question to this dagger. This is a gorgeous example by the way?!
Best Wishes,
Bob


please notice this threat

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...17096573/m/850105824

thank you


Ralf
#176295 02/03/2010 03:45 PM
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These daggers are period and authentic..end of story....whether an individual approves of them or not only matters in so far as their willingness to purchase...everyone has a right to their theory or opinion..20 years ago no one questioned their "ORIGINALity" if anyone has as nice an example as pictured here and wants to dispose of them please email me..lol.A nice dagger Jim that I would be happy to add to my collection...cheers, Ryan

#176296 02/03/2010 07:46 PM
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Ryan:
I took a beating from a couple of individuals with no proof othrwise and,frankly they should have known better. However; That's water over the dam and both are grudgingly now admitting the dagger is 100% period and legit. The other detractor,who is becoming a real pariah in this hobby, has an axe to grind with me.
The example I have is in very nice condition and does show the unmistakable signs of legitimate perid wear. I have always been pleased to have it in my collection.
Jim

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[quote=anonymous 123][/quote]
Hi please contact me
Thanks you

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moral of this thread.........ALL men make mistakes, bigger men admit to them.............

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