Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,780
Likes: 50
Dave Online Content OP
OP Online Content
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,780
Likes: 50
Anyone who has taken apart an SS or SA/NSKK dagger has probably noticed marks on the tang of the dagger. Letters, numbers, symbols. Most daggers have them and a few do not. They were made as the blade was forged by steel being forced into the marks already cut into the billets or molds.

What they mean has never been fully explained. Are they property marks of who owns the billet or who owns the forge ? Are they marks to record how long the billet lasted ?

Your thoughts and photos appreciated of SS or SA/NSKK tangs

CAH tang double strike.jpg (9.28 KB, 176 downloads)
Jacobs B Tang.jpg (223.8 KB, 175 downloads)
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,703
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,703
Likes: 1
Hi Dave...these tang markings denoted either the producer .... OR..... the sub contractor who provided blade blanks to producers.

In your First photo CAH / Carl August Hartkopf foundry

listed producers with CAH tang marking

Gebr Berns
Cark Eickhorn ( SA SS NPEA )
Hammesfahr & Cie
Gottlieb Hammesfahr
Robert Klaas
Gustav Spitzer
Carl Zander

Although there is no documentation on the identity of A series numerals ..it has been documented that what other producers had been observed having these A series numbers within a circle.

It has been observed that A22 was produced for Jacobs
also to note that Eickhorn used A23 and a few other non A series markings.

This is another way to at least seeking a possible identity of a producer who either produced their own blades or at least pointed in the direction of those producers who are observed to have used these markings.

Regards Larry

Last edited by Larry C; 11/26/2022 02:26 AM.

Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 6,710
Likes: 26
Online Content
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 6,710
Likes: 26
How significant are the tang marks (and cross guard marks) to collectors? Opinions please wink


[Linked Image from germandaggers.com]
Visit us at www.GermanDaggers.com
Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,703
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,703
Likes: 1
IMO...very significant when all other avenues of identity and authentication have been exhausted at least ..these markings as I said above will bring an identity closer than before.....AND....significant as it is a detail/s that a collector " wants " to see ...the same as runes buttons grip eagles ...crossguard types etc.

For those who dont touch their daggers...these markings will be of no use ...but only as a last resort ..that a collector feels s/he has to open it for further evaulation.

Some tangs will not have markings.

Edit from my 2nd post which I should of added to : ......( Not all ) .. of the tang markings have been identified to a producer or sub contractor ...but only has been identified in observation sightings of what dagger producers used these blade blanks.

Crossguard Gruppe marks also can be tied into the identity of a producer and 9 times out of 10...it will correlate with a tang marking.
These details ( especially gruppe marks ) that collector wants to see if the producer matches the gruppe mark designation.....and again all this through frequency in sightings

I also along with Vern am curious of more thoughts and opinions...the more the better smile

Regards Larry


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 6,710
Likes: 26
Online Content
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 6,710
Likes: 26
Interesting observation. I have photos of some 35 cross guard marks and 38 tang marks. They are in galleries but currently do not have the associated maker names. Would that be something worthwhile to build on?


[Linked Image from germandaggers.com]
Visit us at www.GermanDaggers.com
Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 16
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by Vern
Interesting observation. I have photos of some 35 cross guard marks and 38 tang marks. They are in galleries but currently do not have the associated maker names. Would that be something worthwhile to build on?

I sense while fleshing out this esoteric topic may be of interest to some, it may also be extremely helpful to those individuals involved in fabricating convincing fakes.
Given the quality of fakes these days, I’d say pursuing this thread is not a good idea.


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 6,710
Likes: 26
Online Content
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 6,710
Likes: 26
Unfortunately most of this information is already out there if you go looking for it. Fisher's Quick Reference and multiple threads on this and other forums have bits and pieces that the fakers can use. The question becomes would this be more useful to the collectors or to the fakers wink


[Linked Image from germandaggers.com]
Visit us at www.GermanDaggers.com
Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 16
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 16
But Vern, most fakers don’t have the diligence to dig up the info. Collectors, at least old school collectors will either find itself or consult those in the know. My point being, why make it easier for the modern day fakers?


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,703
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,703
Likes: 1
This was my reluctance to reply as Although its a good idea for the collector..I also agree with Billy that this can be a double edged sword.
I have seen fake Piel & Adey ( PA ) marked crossguards ...it would be a matter of time before the rest of the markings would be compromised.

It would be more useful to both collector and faker ....but the faker will have an ever increasing edge as is with other highly faked Edged related types.
Its bad enough that some period blade dies have been used to create blades and assemble / part them together with period fittings.

What has been posted on forums so far ...yes ..the fakers can use these ...but some of the fakers dont have the whole bag of chips ...which its nice to share chips but not the whole bag.

In Billys post above in regards to dilligence....we live in a microwave lazy society ...which there are more lazy people looking for a quick answer and never learning nothing.
Its a constant battle to remind these people to do a little research the same amount of energy that it takes to get dressed in the morning.
Tired of seeing the " Real or Fake " threads ...and also same guys contacting me privately over and over again if its real or fake...I give them one or 2 appraisals after that I say..post it on the forum for discussion.

I would say post the white photos with tang markings ,,but not actual photos of the tang and marking itself. The answers are already here in this website and others.
Personally for myself ..Im on the fence with attaching identities to the tangs.

Regards Larry


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 671
Likes: 16
E
Online Content
E
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 671
Likes: 16
I would think that the people trying to put out quality fakes to deceive buyers and make money would work off a real dagger they have in hand not photos off the internet.
Lots of people say that Russia has produced a lot of fakes, we all know there are a lot of real SS daggers in the USSR.
Fakes will happen either way, should we stop learning because we are scared of fakes??
Ed

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 6,710
Likes: 26
Online Content
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 6,710
Likes: 26
While the tang marks and crossguard marks are of interest to the collector, I don't believe it is of use to the fakers. Trying to produce a convincing fake from photos is practically impossible. So it's a given that they are going to produce a copy of a dagger in hand. I can't think of any reason that a faker would change the crossguard or tang marks from what he can see. The faker is more likely to eliminate the marks completely as raised marks are hard to produce. Of course if they cast copies of the guards to get the raised marks, the difference in weight and size will give it away as a fake. Simply my opinion, mileage may vary, contents may settle during shipping, slippery when wet, and batteries not included wink


[Linked Image from germandaggers.com]
Visit us at www.GermanDaggers.com
Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,780
Likes: 50
Dave Online Content OP
OP Online Content
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,780
Likes: 50
Here are a couple of shots of a fake blade with almost believable tang marks. It was on WAF 2-3 weeks ago and had fake P. & A. guards too.

As Vern says, they copy what they have in hand. But, if we teach the fakers what good tang marks look like, we may pay for that lesson down the line eek

Ask yourselves what real use collectors can make of a gallery.

Dave

image_5417748.jpg (42.9 KB, 37 downloads)
image_5417753.jpg (53.89 KB, 37 downloads)
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 16
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by Dave
As Vern says, they copy what they have in hand. But, if we teach the fakers what good tang marks look like, we may pay for that lesson down the line eek

Ask yourselves what real use collectors can make of a gallery.

This was my point entirely. Some of the info is out there already but it does not benefit the collecting community as a whole to make is easier for fakers to perfect their dagger minutiae.

If a legit collector seeks the info, it has always been available to him. Why not reach out to knowledgeable people who know these things? This is what I did when I was new and it works. The collecting sphere is much different now than it was 20-30 years ago and putting all this info out there for easy access might not be the best course to protect tomorrow’s newbies.


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,228,413 SS Bayonets
1,728,822 Teno Insignia Set
1,091,059 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
arrow cross, neo nazi or?
by Duzig - 01/26/2023 02:44 AM
totenkopfrings.com SS Honor Ring Review
by ABTmRw - 01/25/2023 08:57 PM
Puma Nicker, vor 1964
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 01/24/2023 06:17 PM
Imperial Marine Dagger?
by wschmidt - 01/22/2023 12:14 PM
Red Cross Dagger for review
by wschmidt - 01/22/2023 12:07 PM
Latest New Posts
arrow cross, neo nazi or?
by Duzig - 01/27/2023 09:05 PM
totenkopfrings.com SS Honor Ring Review
by Gaspare - 01/27/2023 06:35 PM
Puma Nicker, vor 1964
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 01/26/2023 06:20 PM
Some WW1 rings to check out:
by Gaspare - 01/26/2023 04:13 AM
Kuno Ritter Nicker
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 01/25/2023 05:42 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics31,382
Posts325,164
Members7,286
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
4 members (Dave, Nietzsche, Billy G., Eric26), 93 guests, and 139 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5