UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Hunting, Forestry, and Shooting Forum Verlangerungsmesser

Here is the Aug. 19, 2020, Morphy Auction description of the "very unusual folding dirk", PATENT 19946 on the blade, for opening the knife:

"Handle has a unique mechanism to extend the blade by pulling on the guard and separating the knife handle".

And I found a good picture of the knife from Morphy Auction.

Note that the knife was sold on eBay on Mar. 6, 2022, for $747.79.

This knife was 1st listed for $2999.99 on eBay and the seller dropped the price twice before relisting at a very low price to find buyers.

The PUMA Verlangerungsmesser was offered with 2 blade lengths: 22 cm & 27 cm. The PUMA Verlangerungsmesser also came with and with a folding guard.

The Puma Verlangerungsmesser is usually found with a Hirsch-Griff (Stag-handle) but was offered at some time with a Bakelite handle.

The PUMA Verlangerungsmesser was probably made from about the 1930's to the late 1950's.

The most common stamp found on the blade of these knives is the "Puma head, PUMA, SOLINGEN, ROSTFREI" makers mark. One example from "Classic Puma Knives" has the "PUMA, SOLINGEN" tang mark found from about 1940 to 1960's.

The PUMA Verlangerungsmesser was probably offered in the 1962 AMERCROMBIE & FITCH CO. catalog @ $22.50 on page 47, in the upper right of the page. Note that the PUMA fishing knife on page 46 in the lower left-hand corner is not noted as a PUMA brand.

Here is the link to the PUMA HUNTER site: https://www.pumahunter.de/puma-verlangerungsmesser/

Correction: The PUMA Verlangerungsmesser came with and without a folding guard. (Sorry, I did not edit the above information in time).

WOW!!! There are some VERY nice blades on that site. And I just looked at a small sample.
Amazing, Puma is great. I only have a few White Hunters.
Thanks for showing,
Ed

Thanks Ed,

click on "JAGDMESSER" on the Puma Hunter site, and about halfway down there is a list of 12 versions (1956-1985) of the PUMA White Hunter.

I also like the "KATALOGE & BROSCHUREN" and "BLANKWAFFEN 1936-1945".

Some great pieces and even greater period adverts... ALL very interesting,,good thread!!!!

Oh yes, great looking knifes and advertisements. I'm sure I have some knife advertisements to post.

1890's advertizement for Dunham, Carrigan & Hayden CO. knives made by HART BROS. of PRUSSIA.

Note the Verlangerungsmesser, and sheath with an interesting closure device on the securing strap on the sheath.

Thank you for sharing this wonderful sales catalog's page, C.Wezel !

Do you know any background in regards to the Prussian cutler 'Hart'?

Not much information on "HART BROS. PRUSSIA". Goin's Encyclopedia of Cutlery Markings has HART BROS. on page 121.

And a nice little dagger sold for $100.00 on May 27, 2023, on a popular auction site.

Do not confuse the HART BROS. PRUSSIA with HART, NEW YORK; HARTFORD CUTLERY, PRUSSIA and others.

I found an 1890's advertisement for the HART BROS. PRUSSIA dagger, "No. 171, 5 1/2" blade with ebony & metal handle". See dagger at bottom of page.

This is very similar to the one that sold for $100.00 at auction. The bottom scabbard fitting on the $100.00 auction dagger looks like a replacement with no decoration.

Thank you for the additional information.
My 1986 edition of 'Goin's Enceclopediaof Cutlery Markings' unfortunately does not list "Hart Bros".
Page 96 is listing several other " ... Hart ..." named makers, page 121 makers from 'Kane' to 'Kastor'.

I am very pleased of your photoes and the extra vintage sales catalog's page.

I will complete my records with HART on my 'check list' for possible findings on this cutler.

See 1998 GOIN'S edition, page 121. Only the name HART BROS is listed with no dates.

Next is listed HARTFORD CUTLERY CO. PRUSSIA prior to 1914 a trademark used by Marshall-Wells.

There could be a relationship between the two markings that are both marked PRUSSIA.

Thank you for your support, C. Wetzel!
I did not know that an up-dated edition was being published in the meantime.

1931 Wilhelm Weltersbach catalog from the HUBERTUS products site.

I believe the old knives probably have the PUMP logo and the later post war models have WILH. WELTERSBACH over SOLINGEN-GERMANY or WEIDMANNSHEIL over SOLINGEN over GERMANY.

Note the top knife has the large 26 cm blade.

Note that the snap button on the 1931 WILHELM WELTERSBACH sheath has the "snowflake" design. I believe the "snowflake" design button dates from the early part of the 20th century to maybe late 1930's.

The Verlangerungsmesser with the WEIDMANNSHEIL over SOLINGEN over GERMANY maker's mark on the tang, has a bright shiny chrome button on the sheath.

Many, but not all, older Verlangerungsmesser examples have the maker's mark on the blade, not the tang.

This 1920's to 1930's BOKER Verlangerungsmesser just sold for the "buy it now" price of $699.00 USD. The condition was good to very good for this rare BOKER model. There was also no sheath.

Because of the high price, no sheath and condition of the blade, I was waiting to see if the price would be lowered. After a few months it sold to someone who thought it was worth buying.

Further research on WILHELM WELTERSBACH founded in 1882, page 548 "German Knife and Sword Makers 1850-1945" by J. Anthony Carter notes brand name WEIDMANNSHEIL, registered prior to 1938. Advertisements in 1938 are for new range of WEIDMANNSHEIL folding lock-knives for huntsmen.

Goin's 1998 edition page 297 notes: (deer's head) WEIDMANNSHEIL, SOLINGEN GERMANY (1882-1994).

Page 149 "German Knife and Sword Makers 1850-1945" by J. Anthony Carter notes the mark 'Weidmannsheil' above a stag's head was acquired by Josef Th. Diefenthal in 1997 from the Weltersbach family.

My research has found an older looking Verlangerungsmesser with a 3-line maker's mark of a stag's head to the left of WEIDMANNSHEIL over SOLINGEN over GERMANY on the tang. This 3-line maker's mark is probably older than the 4-line maker's mark with a stag's head to the left of WEIDMANNS over HEIL over SOLINGEN over GERMANY on the tang.

The 4-line maker's mark with a stag's head to the left of WEIDMANNS over HEIL over SOLINGEN over GERMANY on the tang, is pictured above in my earlier post.

Back in Feb. 2023 on this thread was a discussion of the spelling of the German city KOLN, known also as COLOGNE.

The German city was spelled as COLN and sometime after the 1901 spelling reform was changed to KOLN.

I have found an image of a German post card from WW1 dated Dec. 20, 1916, and post marked as COLN.

It seems there was a long transition period before the spelling change was adopted by the German post office.

My compliment for your nice find of a postcard with the postal services' marking 'CÖLLN'.

Thecity's name is dating back to the Roman Empire's latin name 'Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium' which was (partially, the starting word Colonia) transferred (?) to the German name Coellen, following by changes to Cöllen, Cölln, Cöln, and finally "after the 1901 spelling reform was changed to KOLN / KÖLN.

In many foreign languages you will recognize the origin wording, such as in Italian or Spanish language 'Colonia', in French language 'Cologne'.

chevalier2022

Correction of spelling for the surname on a Verlangerungsmesser from COLN, Louis "Hannau" (sic), (Hanne).

Description: DAGUE de VENERIE - 19th century "à la D'Estaing" folded 29 cm, open 40 cm - Double edged 11 cm engraved "LOUIS HANNE COLN", width 20 mm - Guard and pommel maillechort with the initials of the owner HR intertwined - Deer antler plates - Double locking security weapon - with its leather sheath maillescort trim, sheath door - Entrance to the sheath decorated with an acorn - Unique set in perfect condition.

This Verlangerungsmesser is listed for 950,00 Euros.

What a great thread!!


and another nice piece! . The button on handle,,,is that for the 2nd locking device?

Gaspare,

the button on the handle is to release the blade to open. The button probably releases a pin that lines up with the hole in the blade.

The release to close the blade is a rounded piece of metal, located next to the backspring.

The Carl Holz, Renz, Gebr. Muller and E. Witte, Verlangerungsmesser are operated the same.

This "nice piece" Verlangerunsmesser was posted before by me, but with the misspelled surname and limited information. I found the seller's site with the information and gave an update.


Regards, Calvin

I had always wondered if the old Verlangerungsmesser knives were carried in the German Army. I found this post from Bill Warda back in Jan. 2013. NOTE: "Information from a German book, "Deutsche Kampfmesser," states that this type of knife was even carried by German Colonial troops in East Africa".

Re: ??? - Stag Schloss & Stern Folding Hunter Solingen
Mikee#27749801/28/2013 02:48 PM
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Media, PA
Todd,

This is known as a Verl�ngerungsmesser, or, "flexible-folding-extension" knife. They're listed in many original Solingen blade catalogs, normally under the heading of forestry and hunting weapons. Considering how many major and minor Solingen weapons/cutlery producers there were at the turn of the century, and then distributors on top of that, I'd say you've found a nice rare one there. I can't recall ever having seeing that name listed, or even heard mention of a Schloss & Stern-marked sidearm before. That's part of the excitement of collecting these things - new information is constantly found. If I had to say how old, judging by the scabbard design and decoration, mid-twenties, early thirties? possibly even teens?

Information from a German book, "Deutsche Kampfmesser," states that this type of knife was even carried by German Colonial troops in East Africa.

Even though yours looks nearly identical to the example on the Hammesfahr product-sheet, it could have come from any number of sources, especially having that unusual marking. A lot of firms made these. Whatever the case may be, your Messer looks to be in super condition, as many of these fine tools are found in "worked-to-death" condition. wink

Best!

Bill

I have just received another Verlangerungsmesser on 16 Nov. 2023 from Ohio. It was listed as: "Vintage Antique Stag Bone Bayonet Folding Knife-Rare Collectible Item".

What it looks like to me is an unmarked, 26 cm spear blade, button release, stag handle, pre 1945 Verlangerungsmesser.

I liked the longer 26 cm spear blade and button release. I don't like that it is unmarked and came without the sheath. I won this Verlangerungsmesser for $256.00 with free shipping on the popular auction site (41 bids).

The blade is 1 mm short of the original 26 cm length. There are some very small stress cracks on the stag handle near some pins and a small hole in the stag near the button.

This unmarked Verlangerungsmesser is similar to the Gottlieb Hammesfahr Nr. 7033. However, there are 4 pins securing the stag handle, not the 6 pins that seem to be shown in the Gottlieb Hammesfahr catalog.

The blade looks like the Nr. 7033 and note there is no swedge (grinding on top of blade near the tip) as found on the older? Carl Holz, Renz, E. Witte and Gebr. Muller type spear blades.

The hole in the blade goes all the way through the blade, there is a pin in the handle that the button moves, to release the blade. The knife works well and is very tight.


C. Wetzel-20609

I just found this from PUMA, U.S.A.

Product information "PUMA Verlängerungsmesser"
The original PUMA "extension knife" has been one of the most wanted rarities for decades and is now available again in a limited edition.
With a lot of passion and dedication, we have been manufacturing hunting knives of the highest quality for over two and a half centuries. Many PUMA knives have meanwhile become true classics and are among the rarities that are not only sought after by users but especially by collectors. One of these special models is our "extension knife" which we produced in the 1930s to 1950s. Now we have decided to re-launch this model, also known as the "Saustecher" because of its original purpose.
The new PUMA extension knife has a fold-out, 19 cm long blade made of stainless 440C steel (57-58 HRC). When folded, the blade extends well beyond the end of the handle and can therefore also be used for finer work. The movable parrying element ("Swing Guard") lies flat against the handle and swings vertically in front of the handle when the blade is folded out to reliably protect the knife-wielding hand - e.g. when catching game. In addition, the "extension knife" has a foldable lever that serves to secure and unlock the blade with retro lettering. Selected deer horn shells and a perfectly fitting leather belt sheath round off this shapely and high-quality handcrafted Solingen product.

Blade length: 190 mm
Blade thickness: 4,5 mm
Steel / hardness: 440C / 57-60 HRC
Length open: 310 mm
Length closed: 216 mm
Knife weight: 276 g
Sheath: brown leather sheath


Since it was formed on the Wupper River in 1769, Puma Knives has set the standard that Established Solingen, Germany as the world’s premier knife manufacturing center. Puma has been distributed in the United States since 1957 and has established a strong reputation for high quality hunting, sporting and gentleman’s knives. Hunters and craftsmen know and trust PUMA’s performance, heritage and technology. The highest grades of stainless steel, innovative designs, genuine stag handles and traditional German craftsmanship are why Puma Knives are considered at the top of every major class ranking for hunting and sporting knives.


C. Wetzel-20609, NOTE: the blade length is now only 19 cm long. Also note: " blade with retro lettering".

Another fancy bolster Verlangerungsmesser, similar to a "Carl Holz" or "Renz" type just sold for $465.00 USD on the popular auction site.

The Verlangerungsmesser was in used condition with slightly blunted tip and was missing a very small piece of the stag handle on the back.

The maker's mark, on the blade, was hard to read and has 5 letters. The seller thought it was French made. My friend in Germany suggested it was a German made Verlangerungsmesser.

There was no sheath. I did not bid on this example that sold with 63 bids.

2 Antique Verlangerungsmesser and sheaths with metal fittings.

Note that one has the fancy bolsters. There must be a name for the fancy bolsters, if anyone knows, please post the name.

I asked my friend in Germany if there is a name for the fancy bolsters. He replied:

"Calvin.
I guess there is no particular name for this bolster. This shape was taken from the French shape. As far as I know was it first used in Tuttlingen. My theory is, that cutler brought it with them during their „ WALZ“. That was very common in those times. Travelling from town to town working on different places. And they modified the knives in their ways.
Greetings T"

So, I suggested "Pinched, knobbed terminated (Quillon) Bolster". See #11 and note this Sword Cross-Guard (Quillon) terminology can be used for medieval daggers or any daggers.

CROSS-GUARD (QUILLON)
Types
Ewart Oakeshott in chapter 4 of his The Sword in the Age of Chivalry (1964) classifies medieval cross-guards into twelve types:

1. a plain horizontal bar, tapering towards the end. This is the basic shape found from the late Viking era through the 17th century.
2. waisted type, popular in the 15th century.
3. a relatively short bar with a rectangular cross-section. Popular during 1150–1250 and again during 1380–1430.
4. the terminals of the bar are bent towards the blade.
5. "bow tie" style with widened and flattened terminals.
6. a curved or bent variant of type 5.
7. the bar has a flat cross-section and is bent towards the blade; popular in the 14th century.
8. bent terminals as in style 4, but a more elaborate form with a hexagonal cross-section of the part fitted around the tang and a pronounced écusson, popular in the late medieval period.
9. an elaborate late medieval type with the bar bent towards the blade and a flat diamond or V shaped cross-section and a pronounced écusson.
10. the arms of the bar taper towards the hilt rather than away from it; mostly also with a pronounced écusson.
11. knobbed terminals, with round or rectangular cross-section, popular during the 15th to 16th centuries
12. the bar curves strongly in the horizontal plane, forming an S-shape; this type dates to the end of the medieval period and is transitional to the early modern quillon types.

The medieval dagger in the 14th and 15th century also adopted a variant with quillons, styled after the hilt of a sword. Quillon-daggers remained popular in the 16th century, after the sword type it resembled had fallen out of use.

References
^, (or more commonly "quillion".) a quillon is "either of the two arms forming the cross-guard" (OED). The term arises in Middle French in the late 16th century and is adopted in English only in the 19th century. The French word is a diminutive of quille "bowling pin", itself a loan of German kegel.

I think, "Pinched, knobbed terminated (Quillon) Bolster" is a better description, since the rare Boker Verlangerungsmesser has the "Knobbed terminated (Quillon) Bolster".

"Twas the night before Christmas, it was sold on eBay, a Verlangerungsmesser for a collector to display."

An unmarked Verlangerungsmesser identical to my "E. Witte, Trier" sold for $472.00 USD without a sheath with 19 bids.

This example was in very good condition with some loss of plating on the fancy bolsters and steel liner.

This example was listed as an "Antique French 19th folding hunting bowie knife stag handle huge rare 1850."

This is the only Verlangerungsmesser I ever saw that is identical to mine. I highly doubt it is as old as 1850.

Merry Christmas, Calvin

1850! , I agree that just doesn't look the age.. But a beautiful knife!!,,,,and that selling price I think is fair! The way things are getting in NYC it might be time to stat carrying one of these again!

On 12/04/2023 I posted:

"The maker's mark, on the blade, was hard to read and has 5 letters. The seller thought it was French made. My friend in Germany suggested it was a German made Verlangerungsmesser".

I have found another image of this makers mark on a dagger also said to be French by the seller, with maker's mark: ERBER.

See 1998 edition of GOINS, page 92: ERBER GERMANY.

My friend in Germany was correct, the Verlangerungsmeeser sold for $465.00 was made in Germany.

A used hard-to-find PUMA Verlangerungsmesser in good condition sold on Jan. 5, 2024, on the popular auction site. It sold for the "buy it now" price of $500.00 from San Antonio, Texas.

This PUMA "V-messer" had a nickel-silver arms shield on stag handle and the model with no folding guard. The sheath was without belt loop and in a damaged condition.

I thought about buying this PUMA, but the condition of the blade & sheath was an issue.

Hey Wetzel


Puma's are very nice knives but I think you made the right decision. I wouldn't have bought it for that price in that condition either. Best!

An early arched H. RIEXINGER, over WILDBAD maker's mark on the blade is noted on a circa 1900 or before Verlangerungsmesser with stag handles, fancy bolsters, button release and dagger type leather sheath with metal fittings on top and bottom.

When I saw this, I sent the eBay link to "Mr. K." with this email: "T_ _ _ _ _ ,

H. RIEXINGER, WILDBAD, I think this was made in your area in Germany. Too bad about the pitting near the tip."

"Mr. K." replied: Calvin.
This is a very interesting knife. The maker is special. Riexinger, Bad Wildbad. This town is not so far from here, right in the Black Forest. Das ist auch eine Kurstadt. There were always rich people in the past. Riexinger is similar to Brenner and Pelz. So, you really should place a bid. I cannot. It is blocked for Germany.
A real collector piece. T_ _ _ _ _."

I replied: "T _ _ _ _ _,

danke, I could find no information on this maker. Do you have any dates, maybe 1880's to 1910's.

I think this V-messer might go to about $500.00 USD or more.

How high $$$ should I go?

Calvon von eBay"

"Mr. K." replied: Calvin.
I would date it around 1880-1900. My brother has a Riexinger Bauernmesser. Very good quality. Right now, I am not able to buy it. How much should you go? Maybe 700 or 800. This maker is really rare. And from that town of Wildbad in particular. You can think about for maybe 3 days. Then we will see. Collecting is a crazy thing. T _ _ _ _ _."

So, I bid $450.00 which I thought is a lot of money for a V-messer with a blade with a lot of pitting. And won the V-messer for $423.99 + $10.99 S&H with 17 bids for a total of $434.99. I knew that $400.00 would not win the knife and "Mr. K." emailed me that it was a fair price.

The H-RIEXINGER, WILDBAD V-messer has arrived. Blade length 25.3 cm; blade thickness 5 mm; blade width 18mm. Overall length 37.8 cm; folded in sheath 27.5 cm.

I was surprised that the H-RIEXINGER, WILDBAD V-messer is smaller than I had imagined.

I used HOPPES GUN OIL (original with no additives) with cotton balls & Q-tips, to clean the live red rust on the knife. The blade did clean up a little with the HOPPES. It has a dull grey look to the blade.

I will not use any PUMA polish, so as to retain the overall patina. The 1 quillon is slightly bent, I would like to fix it, but I don't' want to break it because the quillon is very thin and is 2 parts, as it is also part on the brass liner.

Photos: 4, V-messer: E. WITTE, TRIER (2 fancy bolsters); H. RIEXINGER, WILDBAD (1 fancy bolster); UNMARKED; LUNA, SOLINGEN (clip blade).

Note that the unmarked knife is similar to the G. HAMMESFAHR Nr. 7033.

C. Wetzel-20609

Hey Wetzel,

Awesome find and a great addition to your already impressive collection. Can't wait to see what you find next! Best!

Mikee,

right now, I am trying to acquire a "J. WETZEL, WILDBAD" billhead for beer, dated April 1941 as a "Go-with" for the H-RIEXINGER, WILDBAD V-messer.

Grab your V-messer, grab a beer and go to WILDBAD.

On 25 Feb. 2024 four Verlangerungsmesser knives were sold on the popular auction site.

#1 Anton Wingen Jr. (1937-1989) Othello head mark, Stag handle, folding guard with sheath, very good condition, 29 bids $189.50.

#2 Heinr Boker & Co. "Baumwerk" listed as parts-repair (lever does not lock in), Stag handle, folding guard, no sheath, damaged blade (electric grinder), 12 bids $167.50.

#3 marked INOX, Stag handle, folding guard, nice German style sheath with bottom metal fitting, very good condition (this example is unusual and may have been made in Spain) 1 bid $144.95.

#4 marked Anton Wingen Jr. over Solingen-Germany, Stag handle, folding guard, with all leather sheath with no belt loop, damaged blade (electric grinder) 1 bid $124.95.

It seems that Feb. 2024 was the "month of the Verlangerungsmesser" on the popular auction site as many examples were listed.

My friend in Germany, "Mr. K." has sent photos of an 18th century French D' Estaing (Verlangerungsmesser in German) acquired by a friend.

This very rare knife does not fold, the blade retracts into the handle like the G. Hammesfahr Nr. 7043. There is a button near the pommel to release the blade.

This very rare knife also has a silver-blade cover, to convert the knife to a silver blade fruit knife. This very rare knife also came with the original leather sheath.

This knife was probably originally owned by wealthy person.

C. Wetzel-20609