UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Hunting, Forestry, and Shooting Forum Verlangerungsmesser

Verlangerungs-messer (extension-knife) is also known as the D'Estaing knife, said to be designed in about 1780 by Admiral D'Estaing for use aboard ship. It could be used as a table knife in the closed position or open for self-defence. It was used by the French, British, Germans, Swiss and others as a hunting knife. Offered in various designs. Offen called incorrectly a folding bowie knife. Pictured 1st (3 pictures) is my "E. Witte, Trier" Verlangerungsmesser, this fancy bolster model is similar to a "Carl Holz, Tuttlingen" model or a "Renz, St. Gallen" except it has the fancy bolsters at both ends. This knife may have not been made by E. Witte, Trier and he may have been the distributor. Next is made by A. Feist & Cie, Solingen, "LUNA" trademark. This knife with checkered horn handles was found to be tasty by some beetle larva. The blade is about 21.5 cm and about .5 cm short. Both were found on E-BAY.

1st picture is a "Renz" or "Carl Holz" type Verlangerungsmesser, with fancy bolsters, sold about 2013. Next picture is a "Renz, St. Gallen" Verlangerunsmesser and Taschenmesser, ex-collection of Mr. Kaeshammer of Oberkirch, Germany. 3rd picture is from the 1895 catalog of "Carl Holz, Tuttlingen", see upper right of picture and note Verlangerungsmesser with sheath, from Mr. Kaeshammer.

Dam!! really nice find!! Love it...

Thank you very kindly. Mr. Kaeshammer of Oberkirch, Germany is an advanced knife collector and thinks my "E. Witte, Trier" Verlangerungsmesser is one of the best he has ever seen. He traded his "Renz, St. Gallen" to his brother.

Here is another fancy bolster Verlangerungsmesser. It is marked "Gebruder Muller" and is ex-collection of Mr. Kaeshammer of Germany. It is pictured in the closed position.

Here are two more fancy bolster Verlangerungsmessers. The 1st pictured is only marked "PATENT 19946" on the blade. The bolsters do not have the fine grooves as shown on the others. This knife has no button or visible lock and comes apart at the plain bolster side. It sold on Ebay for $747.79 with 13 bids on Mar. 6, 2022, even though there was no sheath and the blade had rust marks and the tip was damaged. The 2nd pictured Verlangerungsmesser is marked "Louis Hanau, Coln" and has a monogram on the less fancy bolster side. Note that "Coln" is the old German spelling of Cologne. This picture was from Mr. Kaeshammer of Germany who believes this example is from the mid to late 19th century.

1st picture is the Admiral D'Estaing knife as pictures in "The Knife And Its History", written on the occasion of the 100th anniversary of Victorinox. 2nd picture is from an original 1920's "Friedr. Herder Abr. Sohn, Solingen" catalog from the collection of C. Wetzel-20609 and is model Nr.2651 H. H. (Hirsch Horn) with a 20 cm blade. Note that the guard is part of the bolster and does not fold. 3rd picture is from the firm of "Wilhelm Weltersbach", model Nr. 40 with a folding guard. 4th picture is from A. Feist & Cie, Solingen, "LUNA" trademark. Note that this model Nr. 2732 Hh (Hirsch horn) has a folding guard and comes in two blade lengths, 22 und 26 cm.

what great period adverts!!

Couple real classic fighting knife patterns!

Over the years I've as well as other have passed on these 'extension knives' and we probably shouldn't have . And, even though my knife mystery was solved thanks to you its nice to see the design goes way back.....

Your French made "Bargeon, Inox", shell puller knife shown is a recent version made in the 1960's to 1970's. The shell puller type knives are as old as the cartridge itself and date to the 19th century. The 1912 August Stukenbrok catalog shows two types of shell puller knives made by J. Albert Schmidt. The 1st type is the "bolster" type. The 2nd type is the "curved blade with small hole" type. Another type offer by Friedr. Herder Abr. Sohn is a "Tweezer" type.

Let me clarify that I should have written as old as the modern cartridge such as the pin fire circa 1836 in France. The knives with the curved blade and small hole were used on the pinfire cartridge which had a small pin on the side on the cartridge near the base. The small hole was for the pin. The curved blade was for other types of cartridges such as rimfire or shot gun shells.

Here is unusual type of Verlangerungsmesser (extension-knife) that was offered on ebay and sold in Aug. 2020 for $270.00 with some fast bidding at the end of the auction. I believe this unmarked example works like the German WWII paratrooper gravity knife with a retracting motion into the handle rather than folding. This knife looks like one listed as model Nr. 7043 in the Gottlieb Hammesfahr catalog. Research notes: I am not 100% sure of the model number as the print is very small. Note that there are spear blade and clip blade models and I believe the spear blade types on the German made knives may predate the clip blade versions.

This probably early 20th century wood handle Verlangerungsmesser was posted by Colin Davis on 6/10/2007 as "Unknown German hunting knife" on German Daggers.com. The bolster is marked "Gesetzlich Geschutzt" (Legally Protected) with an anchor in between. The term "Gesetzlich Geschutzt" is 1899 or later. Note that this model has a spear blade which is probably before 1945. I have noted the 1895 Carl Holz, Tuttlingen catalog shows a spear blade Verlangerungsmesser and the 1910 Herm. Konejung catalog shows a clip blade Verlangerungsmesser. I believe the spear blade may be older than the clip blade on German made knives and I do not recall seeing a spear blade Verlangerungsmesser made after 1945.

As newbie of this outstanding forum I am very impressed of this extrable knife thread.
Thank you for sharing your great information, Wetzel 206 09, and for showing your collection's knives.

I like to show a couple of nearly identical extractable German knives, being marked by different German cutlers from Solingen:



The top one with bottom bolsters is a Hugo Koeller, the other an Ed. Wuesthof TRIDENT one.

Hugo Koeller's c.1970s sales catalog is illustrating the knife:



I could not research any details on the nearly identical Ed. Wuesthof knife without bottom bolsters, anyway Ed. Wuesthof's 1922 sales catalog is illustrating onother different classic pattern:



BTW: I learned that the colloquial German term ‚Saufaenger‘ for this kind of knife obviously is being translated by collectors in English as ‚pig sticker'.

Yes we still use 'pig sticker' title for these and other knives..

- An excellent thread.. Nice examples, and love the period adverts... Much thanks for posting!

The German names used for the French D'Estaing knife are Jagdmesser (Hunting-knife), Verlangerungsmesser (Extension-knife), Verlangerungsdolch (Extension-dagger) and Saufanger (Pig-catcher). The British used the terms "Folding Dirk" or "Folding Bowie Knife" and may have been the 1st to copy the original 1780's French design in the 1830's to 1840's. 1st pictured is made by Bunting of Sheffield about 1840's. Next picture is 3 British folding Dirk knives from about 1830's to 1840's.

on this topic,,like the 9th post I spotted something familiar I have in a junk draw..

Sorry to interrupt your great topic...

It appears to be horn scales,,blades so sharp you could shave with! Bladed marked twice..

OK, let's put our "junk" back in our "drawers" and get our "train" of thoughts back on the old Verlangerungsmesser special. Here are some old drawings from old catalogs. I would like to thank DAMAST who posted some of these old catalogs on German Daggers.com

A review of scabbard / sheath types used on the German Verlangerungsmesser from the mid to late 19th century shows a dagger type scabbard that fit the blade, with a concave scabbard throat made of metal that matched the contour of the bolster. See "Louis Hanau, Coln"; "Carl Holz, Tuttlingen"; "Renz, St. Gallen".

The probably late 19th century to mid 20th century Verlangerungsmesser form fitted leather sheath that fit the blade and part of the handle, is also found with a metal chape on the bottom. To secure the Verlangerungsmesser a leather strap and buckle or snap button strap was used. My "E. Witte, Trier" has a leather strap and a buckle that has a leather frame, not metal. The Gottlieb Hammesfahr catalog shows the leather strap and metal buckle was used on their Verlangerungsmesser sheath.

The probably early 20th century to mid 20th century Verlangerungsmesser sheaths are usually found with a snap button strap to secure the Verlangerungsmesser to the sheath. Some early 20th century to late 20th century sheaths have no snap button strap to secure the Verlangerungsmesser to the sheath.

P.S. the German name Saustecher is translated to Pig sticker and can be found on the "Puma Hunter" web site along with some Puma Verlangerungsmesser examples.

Invention:

"Modern snap fasteners were patented by German inventor Heribert Bauer in 1885 as the "Federknopf-Verschluss", a novelty fastener for men's trousers".

And so, any Verlangerungsmesser sheath with the snap button strap is probably post (after) 1885.

really,,,what great images and advertisements shown here. Nice, clear etc.

Now will someone find this knife in their collection somewhere and sell it to me!! . just like this,,knife, scabbard, cork screw,[maybe another small blade?]..

,,,,and thanks again for a wonderful topic....,G.

Hey Gaspare, your welcome and thank you for your replies.

I became a member of German Daggers.com to learn more about our Hobbie and to share the information that I have found over the years.

I also like to collect the late 19th century to early 20th century German Bauernmesser (Farmers-knife) with master blade, pen blade, pruning blade, saw and corkscrew. I have three from: "J. Wetzel Sohn, Tuttlingen" (Tortoise handle scales); "Gebr. Dittmar, Heilbronn" (Stag handle scales): "Walther" (Ivory handle scales).

I can find no information on the Walther knife. The bolsters are the same as the "J. Wetzel Sohn, Tuttlingen" and my friend, Mr. Kaeshammer of Oberkirch, Germany thinks both knives are probably from the South-West area of Germany. The "Walther" knife could also be from Switzerland which is very close to this area.

The pruning blade is also used to collect mushrooms and Mr. Kaeshammer has sent pictures of mushrooms he has collected in the Black Forest of Germany. I am not selling, still buying and like to use eBay. Mr. Kaeshammer and friends have some of the best knives I have ever seen and like to take the train to Switzerland on the weekends, how cool is that?

I have found in my e-mail files some great pictures of the "Renz, St. Gallen" Verlangerungsmesser.

I would like to make a correction that this Verlangerungsmesser belongs to a friend of Mr. Kashammer who lives in Switzerland, which is where St. Gallen is located.

Mr. Kashammer traded his "Gebruder Muller" Verlangerungsmesser to his brother.

This Verlangerungsmesser is identical to the "Carl Holz, Tuttlingen" Verlangerungsmesser that is pictured in the 1895 "Carl Holz, Tuttlingen" catalog.

Did they both produce the same Verlangerungsmesser or was one a distributor?

Here are some more photos of my "E. Witte, Trier" Verlangerungsmesser.

Note the leather frame buckle on the sheath.

Here is a better picture of the Verlangerungsmesser, "Louis Hanau, Coln" (Cologne), probably from the mid to late 19th century.

The name "Louis Hanau, Coln" is written in cursive on the blade and maybe the owners name and not the maker's mark.

Note the bottom picture also shows a monogram on the bolster.

post # 357261

I tracked several internet files for ‚Renz‘ cutlers in St. Gallen.

1 – St. Gallen Staatsarchiv (State Archives) is listing a 1885 magazine’s report, stating a donation of table cutlery with buffalo horn handles and the blade marking ‚E. Renz St. Gallen‘ to (or for?) the collection of the ‚Schweizer Nationalmuseum‘ (Swiss Nationmal Museum).
As cutler of this table ware is named: Messerschmied E. Renz, Multergasse 23, St. Gallen.

2 – A German Antique Shop’s post was showing up a vintage renaissance style table knife with a 2-line blade marking ‚RENZ ST.GALLEN“ last year. (No 'E.' .. only RENZ)

3 – Worthpoint-com is showing up a vintage stag horn handled „E.RENZ ST.GALLEN“ marked vintage stag horn handled pocket knife with 7 toolings.
The description of the knife is stating an additional marking with „GERMANY“, surely a proof that the knife was made FOR E. RENZ by a German cutler.

Several sources are referring to Renz cutlers with the identical street name of ‚Multergasse‘ in St.Gallen, with differnet house numbers such as 21, 23, 26, and 43.
Possibly Renz family successors moved while enlargening business?

I assume that 'E. Renz in St. Gallen' was a cutler, marketing knives as distributor and possibly crafting own cutlery items.

Just as additional information:
„Swiss Army" style knives with 6 blades/toolings and tang mark in two lines „W.RENZ ST.GALLEN“ (with matching Victorinox logo ‚cross logo in a shield‘) can be tracked in the internet .
Maybe you will enjoy this letterhead:

I think it is Köln rather than "Coln"

Hi Dave,

thanks for the information and I will pass it along to my friend, Mr. Kashammer in Germany.

Mr. Kashammer did spell Coln, as he thought it is written on the blade.

Cologne was founded and established in Germanic Ubii territory in the 1st century CE as the Roman Colonia Agrippina, hence its name.[3] Agrippina was later dropped (except in Latin), and Colonia became the name of the city in its own right, which developed into modern German as Köln.

I also asked about the Gebruder Muller Verlangerungsmesser. It is from a separate firm, "Gebruder Muller, Stuttgart" Gegrundet 1830 and the firm started in Tuttlingen.

E-mail from Mr. Kashammer: "Gebrüder Müller is knife shop in Stuttgart now. I was there a few years ago. It was founded in the 1830s. It was a manufacturer of knives. But they started to sell knives from Tuttlingen very early.
Müller, Solingen is a different company."

(The "Gebr. Muller, Stuttgart" mark pictured is from a Jagdmesser blade in Mr. Kashamer's collection)

I also asked about the Renz and he replied: "Yes, it is. Probably from Carl Holz, because they traded to each other. But other Tuttlingen maker made this pattern. And Switzerland as well. See Renz, St. Gallen. But Renz originally came from Tuttlingen".

"Research is subject to change", a quote by Mildred Clark.

Chevalier,

thank you very kindly for the Renz information.

I have copied the two pages and will sent to Mr. Kashammer when my e-mail is working again.

The letterhead picture is great and maybe Mr. Kashammer will send it to his friend in Switzerland who has the Renz knives.

I will let you know if Mr. Kashammer has seen the letterhead.

This image is from the Getty Museum collection.

Here is the caption: Vues du Rhin. Der Dom in Coln.
1860–1880
Anselm Schmitz (German, 1839 - 1903)

So, maybe Louis Hanau, was the owner of the Verlangerungsmesser and was French.

This is the reverse of the card, which is not a post card as I first thought.

Note "Cologne".

Here is an old German post card.

Note: "COLN".

There are many records on Ancestry.com for several Louis Hanau's from the Rhineland, Germany (Louis Franz Hanau) and from France (Monsieur Louis Gustave Hanau) with various middle names.

I found this reason for COLN / KOLN.

Joachim Pense, from Mainz, Germany,

"Germany had a spelling reform already in 1901. Actually, it was a Conference that aimed at unifying the spelling rules in the various German states, but it also introduced some innovations: Most notably, word-inital th was replaced by t (e.g., "Thür" 'door' became "Tür") except in loans from Greek. The usage of C was reduced as well: Instead of Circus and Castell you now had to write Zirkus and Kastell. For cities whose name were in scope of that rule (Cöln, Cassel, Coburg, Cottbus) it was decided individually if it should be applied, so today we have Köln, Kassel, Coburg, Cottbus".

Chevalier,

Mr. Kashammer sent this reply to the question about the W. RENZ, ST. GALLEN letterhead and other information from you:

"Hi Calvin, I have some more information about Renz in my files. So, now it is Carneval here. I am free till Wednesday. So I can send you a couple pics of Renz. I got that from the archive in St. Gallen. I have already seen that letterhead. Renz was a high-quality maker. Regards".

If you study this stuff you should know who he is. I believe everyone knows who Lons is! Very famous and more famous than Frevert. Frevert made his knife, Dons had a knife named after him. Although very hard to distinguish from other similar knifes unless the blade is etched with Lons messer which I don't believe it is. The guy was so famous I think they attached his name to make the knife sale lol and I am sure it did. I have a few of his books.

Mikee,

who is Lons?

Where is he from?

What are the titles of his books?

Hi Wetzel,

Here you go. Best!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Lons

Thanks Mikee,

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hermann LönsFaksimile Löns
Hermann Löns (29 August 1866 – 26 September 1914) was a German journalist and writer. He is most famous as "The Poet of the Heath" for his novels and poems celebrating the people and landscape of the North German moors, particularly the Lüneburg Heath in Lower Saxony. Löns is well known in Germany for his famous folksongs. He was also a hunter, natural historian and conservationist. Despite being well over the normal recruitment age, Löns enlisted and was killed in World War I and his purported remains were later used by the German government for celebratory purposes.

Wetzel,

Awesome yep that's him. Best!

I reposted the fancy bolster Verlangerungsmesser, marked "PATENT 19946" on the blade because I just found the 17, Nov. 1882, Patentschrift for the "PATENT 19946" on the blade.

The bolsters do not have the fine grooves as shown on the other fancy bolster Verlangerungsmesser examples.

NOTE: "This knife has no button or visible lock and comes apart at the plain bolster side". (This is probably what was patent).

This new information was found on "The Blade Blog" site by Ulf Ahlstrom. This is a great site and here is the link: http://thebladeblog-ulf.blogspot.com/?view=flipcard

It sold on Ebay for $747.79 with 13 bids on Mar. 6, 2022, even though there was no sheath and the blade had rust marks and the tip was damaged.