UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum RZM M7/...Questions

Dear All,
I hope this message finds you well.
I am happy to be back on GDC and thought I would begin again, as I did so many years ago, with a few questions to you.

So, I am taking a little time to memorize the RZM codes for daggers. The reference here on GDC was invaluable in this effort, thanks you Vern & all who contributed. As I went over this information, I had a few questions that I was hoping you could help me with. Thank you for any input in advance.

1) Of the 118 RZM M7/ codes, I noticed that one is repeated. Ernst Mandelwerth (Eagle above globe used on HJ knives) is listed twice as RZM 7/20 and also as M7/89. Is this correct? It would be interesting if a maker had 2 different codes, perhaps at different times? or different products?
2) I am really surprised at which companies received RZM numbers and which did not. For examples there are many very small manufacturers, who have RZM numbers (ex. Frank Weinrank M7/99, Juluis Pils, Nixdorf M7/117, etc.) but more surprisingly is the lack of some very predominant makers. No RZM code for for example the Suhl makers (Kober, Haenel, JP Sauer, etc.). Perhaps by the time RZM Cades were coming out, the Suhl makers focused on firearms? No RZM for E.Pack?! Also no RZM for; Wagner & Lang, Axt und Hauer, Pfeilringwerk, Daniel Peres, and about 20 others.. Does anyone know why? If they did not get an RZM number, then what were they doing during that time? Producing something else?

And a few other points:
-The only unknown mark is M7/107 correct? Very interesting...
-Of the 118 makers with RZM codes, we are missing only 2 images of the original mark. These are M7/88 (J. Schmidt & Sohn) and M7/97 (F. Koeller & Co. Solingen Ohligs). If anyone has a picture of the original (not RZM) mark from these firms, it would be great to see.
-Vern you have a typo in the RZM reference list; M7/91 should be Karl with a "K", rather than "C", I believe.

Tanks again for any input.
All the best,
Johnny

Me again, just signing in with the correct login now...
Thanks again in advance,
Johnny

A couple of quick answers.

Yes, M7/107 is unknown on all the lists I have ever seen.

RZM marked SA daggers and/or HJ knives are known for J. Schmidt and F Koeller. Maker marked examples for these are unknown. They made bayonets/trench knives with a stamped name but no symbol.

Fixed the Carl/Karl typo. Thanks


It is known that RZM codes could be withdrawn and it is reasonable that they could be reissued later. Another dual code example is Jacobs & Co., Solingen-Grafrath who is listed with RZM M7/29 and RZM M7/118.

Best photos I have, a trench knife and a bayonet.

Thanks Vern, very helpful.

Sorry: one the list published, M7/29 is not Jakobs, but rather Klitermann & Moog. Is this correct?

But we don't know what the other makers, who received no RZM code were doing after 1938 (or whenever RZMs were implemented... I know, I should know.)?

Thanks again.
Johnny

And thank you for the answers and photos!

Some RZM lists show Jacobs & Co. as either M7/26 or M7/29. M7/26 was assigned to Carl Aug Meis GmbH (and withdrawn in 1938) while M7/29 was assigned to Klittermann & Moog GmbH. It is thought that the M7/26 designation for Jacobs is in error, and that M7/29 was assigned to both Jacobs and Klittermann & Moog by mistake. Jacobs was then assigned M7/118.

Hi, Johnny, Good to see you again.

Ooops,

Slightly different info-

M7/26 I have is Carl August Meis

And I list M7/118 as an additional SS code

Fascinating subject ... no two list seem the same

Dave

Very interesting.
Thank you.

Still wondering what all the other „non-RZM makers“ were doing between 1938 and 1945…

Thanks again Vern

Johnny,

The answer to that lies in that book on the knife makers ... the new one. More later on that. Got to go

And one more question: the RZM codes were „by maker“ rather than „by dagger type“, correct? Meaning the RZM code for (for example Eickhorn) is always M7/66, regardless of whether the blade being marked is an SA, SS, HJ, etc.
Right?

Oooh! Cliffhanger from Dave!

Is someone finally going to complete the maker mark books? That was a sad story that the 2nd volume was never completed… Carson or something was the author?

Correct, the code was assigned to the maker and applied to all types of edged weapons.

Cool. Thanks.
Sorry one more typo in the list: M7/69 the maker is H A Erbe, not H A Ertbe.
👍

Got it. Thanks!!

MMmn ..

Johnny's Question: The RZM codes were „by maker“ rather than „by dagger type“, correct ?

Yes, except for the RZM SS codes which were for SS daggers only ! And there is an exception to that, too

Johnny,

That book of Carter's was completed - and very well done - in 2015

Here's a US Amazon link:

https://www.amazon.com/German-Knife-Makers-Anthony-Carter/dp/B013CQ80VO

Dave

Wow… 2015?
Where have I been! I really need to get back into this hobby😅.
Thanks Dave, I’ve already ordered a copy. 👍

Thank you again for the input.
Just to double check; we do not know why: Ernst Mandelwerth (Eagle above globe used on HJ knives) is listed twice as RZM 7/20 and also as M7/89. Is this correct?

That is correct.

Thank you!