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#214065 07/09/2006 11:46 PM
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Even though I stopped collecting, I always wanted a luft sword and when this became available, I couldn't resist it.
It is an early E.& F. Horster (w/waffenampt). It is marked under the crossguard with Schl.53 and also on the upper scabbard fitting (just above the hanger ring).
Also on the teardrop hanger is the following:
1. A. Komp.
d. L.N.S.
Just this stamped upside down is a stamping that is difficult to read due to the graining, but the best I can make out is R. Lm?Ko.
Iwill try to take some better pics later.
Just curious, what would a rig like this be worth in todays market.
All leather is intact with some minor wear and the blade is ex++ due to some runner marks in the center of the blade . Thanks, Ron

lufta1a.jpg (70.39 KB, 465 downloads)
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#214066 07/10/2006 12:23 AM
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Nice find. I am a little rusty but I think the prices vary greatly from mid $800's to Mid $1000's. I would think one would be worth in the $1200 range but some of those more up on prices will let you know a better range.


Thanks, Blademan

#214067 07/11/2006 10:58 AM
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The price is based on the blade condition, the tip should be needle like, and no nicks. the scabbard is important too, maybe you can post more pics of them. The horster swords are one of the nicest arround.

#214068 07/11/2006 12:52 PM
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GREAT looking sword!! I also want one of these silver ones! CONGRATS! Big Grin Kevin.


It's ALL in the DETAILS!!.......
#214069 07/11/2006 07:55 PM
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Here are a few more. Hope they turn out ok. Ron

s4.jpg (28.54 KB, 406 downloads)
#214070 07/11/2006 07:57 PM
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#214071 07/11/2006 08:02 PM
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#214072 07/11/2006 08:04 PM
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#214073 07/11/2006 08:06 PM
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#214074 07/11/2006 08:09 PM
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#214075 07/11/2006 08:56 PM
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I agree with blademan the School markings make it a much more desireable item. Especially with that heavy patina - nice score mate


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#214076 07/11/2006 09:14 PM
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Very nice sword and markings. I would think more around the $800. range unless you bought from a big name. What do the rest of you guys think?

#214077 07/11/2006 09:48 PM
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Hello
Just wanted to clarify why I asked on value. I am not fishing for a price so I can sell it. It is not for sale. It has been in a private collection and will now reside in mine. I just wanted to know what current prices are. I don't want to give the wrong impression. Hope that doesn't sound sarcastic as it is not meant to be. Ron

#214078 07/12/2006 11:28 PM
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What do you translate from the hanger markings? Ron

#214079 07/13/2006 02:08 AM
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Ron Holt,
Please give me a call. 313 671 8667
thanks
Bob Grant


robert grant
#214080 07/13/2006 02:57 AM
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Nice to see matching unit markings on the sword and scaber. Recently I let a unit marked JG26 Luff slip by for $850 in great shape. I have been kicking myself ever since.

#214081 07/13/2006 04:00 PM
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Dow Cross
That was a great buy for somebody.
I think Dale Ellis may have some wishful thinking at his valuations. I think collectors woudl be buying them all up at that price if they could. Ron

#214082 07/16/2006 07:05 AM
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A very nice example Smile of a government issue Luftwaffe Flier’s Sword with unit markings which add to its history. Oftentimes the markings are not decipherable or at least not easily decipherable. But this one I think falls somewhere in the middle. It appears to be issued to or the properly of a Luftwaffe school. With the markings on the hanger possibly indicating that it was issued to a senior NCO in the command element of the school.

That is a informal offhand guesstimate. And what is needed now is to look at the Luftwaffe Order of Battle/TO’s to try and tie it to a specific location. And the organizational structure at that location. That takes a little more work, and is not helped by the fact that the Luftwaffe itself seems (IMO) to have reinvented marking conventions seemingly at the whim of whoever was doing the marking. FP

#214083 07/16/2006 02:33 PM
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Hello Frogprince
Thank you for helping.Do you know where I can locate the order of battle or TO's?
Also, as you can see, there is a wide range of value estimations. In your experience and opinion, what would a current valuation be? Again, thank you and hope I have not posted about it too much. Ron

#214084 07/16/2006 03:55 PM
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Ron, Just an opinion, but I think the L N S stands for Luftwaffe Nachrichten Schule or Luft. Signals School. Could look for that in the Order Of Battle.Good Luck and a great sword. See Ya,Hugh.

#214085 07/16/2006 11:02 PM
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Where would I find these orders of battle/to's to identify schools? Again, if I am taking up too much space/time on this, just let me know. Ron

#214086 07/17/2006 03:04 AM
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First, the Orders of Battle/TO’s (etc.) are found in various places and for various time frames. For example: the Order of Battle for the air assault on England is different than the one for the attack on Russia. I don’t have an all inclusive hard copy document with everything in it although I have abstracted some hard copy data as time permitted for specific areas. Which I probably should automate at some point to make it more accessible. Miscellaneous books, the Internet, and (Allied) intelligence documents all contribute something.

Another major factor is that the Luftwaffe was a constantly/changing expanding organization. Very early TO’s were smaller in size. But as the Luftwaffe expanded, changed or added missions (for example the ground units, night fighters etc. etc.), the unit names and locations of various units can get a little confusing. Which is why prior to the war actually starting they more or less quit unit marking items if dated items are any indication. And prior to then while many items have unit markings - many other same period dated items simple do not and never had them. My belief is that the constant changes is a major reason why they quit unit marking items altogether. Or never used them when the items were first acquired. That does not mean that the information is not available for the unit marked items. As there are folks who do specialize in that area, but I am more of a generalist with an interest versus a specialist.

I like Karlsrue’s suggestion as communications (and later on communications intelligence schools) were a significant part of Luftwaffe operations. Although I imagine the “N” could also possibly represent something like a supply (Nactschub) or Navigation/Nautiker school.

As for value I’m not a dealer, and am generally reluctant to fix a value on an item for a couple of reasons: There are multiple numbers. Buying and selling. And dealer and private purchase. And location. With some significant variations between them. If you’re not planning on selling it immediately I would just sit on it while you contemplate your options. FP

#214087 07/22/2006 12:12 AM
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quote:
It appears to be issued to or the properly of a Luftwaffe school. With the markings on the hanger possibly indicating that it was issued to a senior NCO in the command element of the school.

Hello FP
Just one more question. How or what determines if a sword was issued to a senior NCO or officer? I thought just officers had sword. Thanks, Ron

#214088 07/22/2006 03:40 AM
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In most military establishments officers were required to purchase their own uniforms. Which included swords as an adornment/accessory to the uniform. Enlisted personnel were generally paid less and the service branch (government) provided uniforms to EM. This included swords (and daggers for some German forces) that were “loaners” which were issued to be used in the performance of official duties when in uniform - and possibly some off duty circumstances as well when in uniform. This was a common practice in Imperial times which was continued during the Third Reich.

German military senior grade NCO’s of the rank of “Unteroffizier mit Portepee” were authorized to carry the same model swords as for officers. The swords were, however, marked to indicate government instead of private ownership. On the sword posted the Luftwaffe style Waffenamt and unit markings leave no doubt that the sword in question was never intended to be property of any entity but the Luftwaffe. However ..... that does not preclude the swords as a group from being temporarily issued to an individual officer on temporary duty, temporarily replacing a lost personal property sword, or as an interim temporary issue sword for a officer who may have lacked the funds to purchase his own sword. At which time the government issue sword would revert back to the armory where they were usually stored. FP

#214089 07/23/2006 09:16 PM
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FP
Thank you very much for helping me. Now I can write down as much of the correct history as possible. Ron

#214090 07/23/2006 11:31 PM
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To help lock in the concept, although I’ve posted these particular examples before, I think that they are illustrative of officer’s model swords for senior grade NCO’s (Unteroffizier mit Portepee). The brass hilted earlier prewar example Infanterieoffizierdegen (M1889) to the right is unit marked to a Garde regiment. The later wartime steel hilted ‘Kriegsmodell’ M 1889 to the left is also unit marked. And posted below them is the Imperial era inspection/acceptance stamp on the pommel cap of the Kriegsmodell.

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#214091 07/23/2006 11:32 PM
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The pommel cap.

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#214092 07/24/2006 07:30 PM
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$800-$850 is the average price that luft swords sell at quickly. The funny thing is, they end up there for ones that are not so nice, while decent ones don't go much higher.

$1200 is probably more what this is worth, but it wouldn't necessarily sell at that level. Luft swords tend to molder on dealer sites, (where this price is asked), if memory serves.

The teardrop is around a $100. One that was 'fancier' sold for around $200 recently: it had an extra loop, different shape, and the under dress belt built to it.

Ron #355544 08/17/2022 04:51 PM
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I was just able to find and identify the unit on my Horster Luft sword/hanger that I posted some time ago.. Thanks to WAF member "naxos" for the help.


1.A.Komp. I.L.N.S. that's: First (radio-operators) (Bordfunker) Ausbildungs Kompanie of I.L.N.S. also known as "Luftnachrichtenschule 1" located at Nordhausen inThuringia, Germany.

Last edited by Tanker; 08/17/2022 04:52 PM.
Ron #355563 08/18/2022 08:29 PM
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This is the book on Amazon. Unfortunately it is in German only.

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