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Bill,

The outfit that Goldfasan posted above is now in my collection. One of the documents to this one individual list him as a "Strafanstalts-Oberwachtmeister" and he was promoted from a "Justizwachtmeister" on another. He was a WWI veteran and I have his Imperial Militärpass where he served as an Unteroffizier in an Ulanen-Regiment and an MG Komp.

He is also shown as serving in a Gerichtsgefängis from 1934 to 1938 so he was what we would consider a "jailer." So, I think the distinction between a court officer and a jailer may not be such a bright line as we think. Perhaps we should think of these folks more in line with jail personnel who transport folks to court to and from municipal or county lockups for trial and folks to serve in prisons for convicted criminals? Frankly, I am not certain myself but the more I learn the less I am certain there is a bright line distinction between Justiz and Strafanstaltz folks.

Here is another view of the tunic, which is much like yours.

George

Straf._NCO_tunic_collar.JPG (32.54 KB, 288 downloads)

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Here is a closeup of the shoulder boards. I believe these indicate Strafvollzug service and the documents to this tunic call this man a Strafanstalts-Oberwachtmeister.

George

Straf._NCO_shoulder_boards.JPG (48.54 KB, 286 downloads)

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George - Congratulations glad you now have it - I changed my direction to Political Leader and had to release some of my items. This came straight from the wearers son along with the papers.

Horst


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Horst,

Thank you. I am always happy when I can buy something that I need from other forum members. I think the outfit is outstanding.

Here is something else that I happily bought from another forum member when it became surplus to their needs. This is what I believe to an example of the Justiz side of this discussion. Notice that this tunic is cut in exactly the same form as the carmine piped one but is green piped. Also notice that the buttons are white metal instead of gold color.

This seems to make complete sense if you read the WKC catalog description of the sword for these two officials. The distinctive sword has the same catalog number of Nr.1047 for both with the following descriptions:

"Justizbeamten-Säbel, silberfarbig
Strafanstaltsbeamten-Säbel, vergoldet"

I believe this tunic to be an example of the Justizbeamte from this same time period.

George

Justiz_tunic.JPG (32.93 KB, 280 downloads)

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Closeup view of the shoulder boards on this tunic. The shoulder boards are certainly the distinctive earlier style of Justiz boards from prior to 1942 when the tunics had concealed buttons, different pips, etc as Jiri has pointed out.

At one time there was a chart showing these earlier style Justiz boards but I don't know if it has dropped off the forum or not.

George

Justiz_tunic_shoulderboards.JPG (45.12 KB, 273 downloads)

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Bill,

I frankly don't know.

I really don't understand the white metal buttons myself... but there they are. They look original to the tunic and are the proper "krinkle" style of pebbling by Assmann. That is to say, they are not the standard military issue style of pebbled button if you know what I am trying to say. All I can think of to do is to go back to the color of the swords and that would correspond nicely to these buttons.

I don't know about the pips either. The 1942 regulations state "Rosetten." Two Rosetten for Oberwachtmeister boards in either Justizwachtmeisterdienst or Werkdienst bei den Vollzugsantalten. This is the rank of both these tunics. The green Justiz shoulderboards are distinctive with the separation between the tresse but I don't know the dates for these. Perhaps Jiri knows?

Both of these collar tabs are green but I have seen the black ones too. Combine that with the black band on the peaked cap. Shoulderboards and collar tabs all have gold cellon trim, which seems to be rather standard.

Unfortunately, the only set of regulations we have are the 1942 regs that Gary came up with. These regulations show the tunic as having six exposed buttons on the front of a closed collar tunic. These tunics all (except for Bernd's eight button examples and Gary's open collar) have concealed buttons. I think these are earlier but that does not mean that they could not have continued in wear for some length of time.

It is confusing...

Justiz_tunic_collar_tabs.JPG (48.34 KB, 401 downloads)

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Bill,

A great example of the 1942 regulation Justiz tunic! I don't disagree with your supposition about the silver collar tab buttons. That scenario sounds reasonable to me and may well explain the white buttons. It also makes sense in light of the silver and gold finished swords.

George


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Bill, What a Spectacular Example of a Rare to see uniform (!) Perhaps Gary8's Book will serve to clarify all of these types of Color nuances? Hope so.

Also Love the Shoji Screen background, as it gives Vert./Horiz. perspective to the Uniform (and just kinda looks like those "lines" behind the Guys in Police line-ups & Mug Shots.... Intended, or Unintended...neat! Dave....dblmed


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In few past days I tried put together all known informations to Strafanstaltsbeamten & Justizwachtmeister. It's only worksheet for the present not for public use.
Okay, there are some mistakes and dubiousnesses.

If somebody of forum members has more informations or can correct any mistakes in this worksheet, please, be so kind and share it with me - to make this page so accurate as possible

Thnx

http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/dr/mdj/MdJ.html

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Here is a very nice picture I just got in of a justice official, notce the darker collar and against the lighter jacker. Could this photo be of a justice official for the occupied eastern territories?

img491.jpg (78.9 KB, 299 downloads)
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My congratulation also on this cap it is a great cap...Looks real fine with the tunic.

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Smile These uniforms - one beside another- looks really GREAT! It seems You're have a very rare collection of TR prison officials! Smile

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Strafvollzug Officer's:

justice2.jpg (71.46 KB, 224 downloads)
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Strafvollzug NCO:

justiz.jpg (76.99 KB, 218 downloads)
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Second visor (if buttons are silver) is for Justizwachtmeisterdienst (after old dress regs to 1942) - see sources I)from
http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/dr/mdj/MdJ.html Wink

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Jiri--they are gold buttons:

straf.jpg (62.25 KB, 192 downloads)
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In this case is a mystery cap - bird must be in golden yellow for all ranks after DBeklv 1942 (the last one in TR era I'm 100% sure)....
The first cap chincord is not after DBeklV too - there must be 2 green and 1 gold cords, not 2/2 cords...
It seems some anomalies were tolerated in Strafanstallt Dienst...
In all cases they are great visors... and in very good conditions. Congrats!

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BTT to keep alive

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Nice uniforms, but it is the name Unland that I find interest in. A friend in Baltimore has known a family with the same name for over 30 years. and this fellows father was in the service of the Polizei I think his name was Hans do you my friend D.A. Monath?

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Is there any one here have an rank charts of these ranking systems ? I have yet to find one. need for my records.
thank you . jeff

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This is a tough one. Justiz basically used the Prussian ranks until the early 40's when they standardized from two branch colors,Carmine and green to just green, but silver tab buttons were retained for one branch, gold the other. You end up with very strange combinations, Carmine piped tunics,with green and gold boards,and silver piped tabs.
All VERY strange, and I have never seen a clear explanation of it all. Justiz was not part of the police so the Deuster book I recommended in the other thread is silent.

Bill Unland

Last edited by W.Unland; 06/06/2011 01:29 PM.
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Jeff,

Bill is quite right about changes in the Justiz rank system over time. Similar to the Ordnungspolizei but a bit different in the styles. Here are some examples of the more often seen later style NCO rank boards. As you can see they are piped in both green (Justiz) and carmine (Strafvollzug) depending upon their assignment. Earlier examples had different styles of aluminum tresse.

Justiz shoulder boards.JPG (38.65 KB, 189 downloads)
Justiz boards & cap cord.JPG (40.89 KB, 190 downloads)
Justiz Reichs level shoulder boards.JPG (9.53 KB, 190 downloads)

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Thank you bill & "orpo". I'm currently back working on a book idea . basically artwork of all the ranks of the third reich.
collar tabs , shoulder boards , sleeve patches, & arm bands (but only if it's for a rank).
so on the odd ball services , I'm lacking info. & beating the trees , seeing what falls out.
thanks for the info., just means I have to dig deeper....jeff

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Here is a first pattern pre-1941 Justiz Officials Schirmmutze with carmine piping for court official/administrative official. Unfortunately it got wet at some point and the green dye of the top turned the piping around the crown almost purple. The bottom retains the original carmine color.

W.Unland

front.jpg (93.08 KB, 148 downloads)
side.jpg (70.35 KB, 146 downloads)
button.jpg (39.04 KB, 144 downloads)
Last edited by W.Unland; 07/29/2011 07:45 AM.
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Here is the tunic that goes with the above cap.

baliff.jpg (29.26 KB, 145 downloads)
collar.jpg (108.26 KB, 147 downloads)
Last edited by W.Unland; 07/29/2011 07:44 AM.
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found this on the net. (1943 dated ??).jeff

justis dept 1.jpg (78.29 KB, 125 downloads)
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this page also.

justis dept 2.jpg (87.37 KB, 125 downloads)
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and lastly ,which shows female uniforms also !!!
does not explain much but, still nice to see the original art work. jeff

justis dept 3.jpg (84.09 KB, 123 downloads)
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Thanks for posting.

Bill U

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I would very much appreciate if expert members of this forum would post pictures of the correct portepee and troddel patterns worn by Justice and Prison Officials on their respective edged weapons - swords/bayo's. These accoutrements are almost never seen and it would greatly assist me as a TR edged weapon collector. Many thanks in advance.

Barry

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my rendition of the female collar insignia, justiz section 1942 regulations. any comments ,any corrections ?
jeff h.

justiz dept collar insignia.jpg (76.39 KB, 109 downloads)
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Just adding another Justizvollzugsanstalten uniform to the thread. This three pocket style of early police tunic can be found in Bavarian Police regulations as shown by Ingo Lohken in his books on German Police Uniforms.

Just tunic.JPG (64.81 KB, 33 downloads)
Just tunic chest.JPG (57.97 KB, 33 downloads)
Just tunic insig.JPG (64.21 KB, 33 downloads)
Just tunic back.JPG (61.93 KB, 33 downloads)

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Thanks, ORPO.

These guys did not score a very fancy uniform, did they ? What did the Justizvollzugsanstalten do ?

Dave

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Justiz guys consisted of Criminal Court Officials (Beamte), Jailers, and Prison Correction Officers. They still exist in Germany and postwar East Germans called them Prison Police. This three pocket uniform is a throwback to Imperial times but it was worn at least as late as 1933. You can't have a police state (or actually any state) without jailers.

I just picked this tunic up last week from a local source. I seldom see Justiz stuff and it is quite scarce.

Last edited by ORPO; 05/23/2022 03:34 PM.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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