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#354654 05/12/2022 10:00 PM
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Ok I will see if I can find the old topic on this I'm sure other topics on the are around. On this forum maybe 10 years ago. It was hot and heavy on these. I apologize for not remembering the person driving the topic but honest I sat with a screwdriver as he talked of removing the runners to reveal a (what I remember as a police stamp) I could be in error but it was not a luft marking for sure. If you know the story on these then you do, if not they were part of a emergency lot on board German bombers. I'm sure no doubt others were used as needed. Mine is painted with a old type of green tropical paint. Period or not I don't know. I was postig old emails from the late Tom Johnson on hang tag research I was involved in. Sounds fancy but it was just some basic stuff. I will paste the email here. I was looking for hang tag info on Alcoso stuff. His comment was lost on me untill this morning when I posted it re-reading it. Here comes the take away........

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Tom Johnson s email relating to hang tags note the luft machete reference.

February 16, 2009

Dear Bret:

Thank you very much for your incoming email messages of earlier today. You have one leg up on me, as I have never seen a David Everts factory control tag. Although this one may have come off of a deerfoot hunting knife, I am sure the same control tags must have been used on their Third Reich dress daggers as well.

In regards to the Klaas tag, I am sure that you are right in your assumption that the blank space was left open to enter the appropriate Klaas model number.

You certainly are not =E 2boring me to tears”, Bret, as you have even shown me something in your emails that I have not seen in the past (the David Everts factory control tag).

In answer to your question about, do I have a period Alcoso factory catalog, I actually have two different Third Reich Alcoso factory catalogs. I have the standard Third Reich Alcoso catalog which has been reprinted, but, by the way, not reprinted by Rex Reddick as Joe Wotka states, but was reprinted by Frederick Stephens in England. In addition to that catalog, I also have an ultra-rare Alcoso factory catalog that shows all of their Third Reich miniature pieces. Unfortunately, the machete is not shown in either of my two original Alcoso catalogs.

Yes, Bret, for some unknown reason a number of the GD Forum members seem to like to take “cheap shots” when not warranted.

All the best, Bret, and I hope this clears up your questions. Thanks again for sending along the color photo of the latest control tags.

Sincerely Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

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To clarify, I'm not looking to stir the pot here. It's a sentence I didn't even notice till this morning. I'm not looking to upset the apple cart either but!!!! Just odd the it was not in a Alcoso catalog. Or maybe not ? To go over all this luft machete business is a re hash not my goal. I can remove the throat from my piece and show it. I was glued to the forum that might as others were. I'm sure the reveal made or broke some. But they still command high prices. And it's a hole many refuse to fill as money can be spent on there pieces with frankly better looks and resale value that will at least return a large portion of your cash out lay. It's an ugly step child as it were. But a serious weapon when needed. Not a dress item.

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Bret
JR Meda has had these Luft Machete's on his site, they are far and few between.
Not sure what is going on here, but they are out there. Did they have tags?? I have NO idea.

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In the above email from Johnson to me 10 plus years ago. I was asking about Alcoso tag variants and at the time here on the forum, a member had removed the scabbard throat to reveal not a luft mark bit a police mark of I remember correctly. I did the same. But Johnson's email he says he has a factory catalog with no reference to Alcoso making this. It was just a comment from another email I had sent him referring to the story here on the forum. I didn't even read that part just skimmed over it to the hang tag stories.
Reading it this morning before posting it. The omission was huge!! Maybe they were made after the Germans purged the family from the Alcoso form. But as seen here on mine it's not a later script long line late mark. But the scales and shows clear the eagle B mark on the rocasso. I will take it apart to show what I mean here in a bit. Just wondering why this was not shown in the catalog??

IMG_20220512_184455561~2.jpg (45.48 KB, 118 downloads)
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Had a bit of the before it begins today. I went to look for a few of these listed for sale. Lakeside trader Paul,has one listed the written bit says ACS but the photo shows it as AWS which is still an Alcoso mark bit no eagle B stamp nod. As my maker mark shows above. I won't hijack his photo or listing you can look it up. It's in very nice condition btw!! So what we see in just 2 pieces is one has a eagle B police mark. Paul's listing does show just the maker mark.
So on my view to call these just a Luftwaffe Machete is some what on error. Maybe we can re+designate as Alcoso machete police or luft I don't know but the the lack of the police mark vs not is a huge difference. If we want to clear up some messy slots in this hobby let's start doing it. If the cops were flying The ME109 I would buy off on luft but we don't call a.police marked combat bayonet a luft bayonet. Let get the info marking wise right and change the designated names to reflect the issue and stampings. How do we as a group so this reflects accurately?

Last edited by BretVanSant; 05/13/2022 05:02 PM.
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I recall a discussion of these back years ago at the MAX. No one knew where the "Luftwaffe Survival Machete" designation came from. One dealer said that if it truly was Luftwaffe issued, it should be waffenamt marked. At that time, no Luft marked pieces were known, and no documentation or purchase orders for the Luftwaffe had been found. Because it was not listed in any of the existing Alcoso catalogs, most felt that it was the same as the private purchase fighting knives and other utility knives produced by the firm, and not an official pattern.


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So again facts were discussed but the designation was not changed. I survived 33 days and needed to try and change this hang tag issue that I seen as out of control. Let's as collectors learn something here. The facts are not set in stone. Maybe we will never know everything about this unique area but let's not displace facts for convenience. We see ACS scales AWS scales, script logos. We can date navy daggers by maker marks. Let's apply the same thinking here. Army daggers by early or late. Converted 1st model RLBs to 2nd model. DRP weyersberg bayonet. This commercial machete needs the same scrutiny. Eagle B everyone. Where is a bayonet collector or luger collector. Let's not just collect!! We are missing a key stone player here. Johnson!!! His quote to me was after x number of books I don't have much else to say. I can't argue that. But time has passed and questions still come along. Let's change what I see as inadequate. Or all those books are just collecting dust. We owe the hobby that at a minimum. No glory no atta boy. Let's fix this if we can! Eagle B anyone ???Did we forget why we are here?

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Eagle B marked Alcoso machete

IMG_20220512_185038162_2 (1).jpg (97.86 KB, 83 downloads)
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Maker mark and stamping

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So this came from a forum member back after I had joined the forum early 2000 maybe like 04 05 . I could actually drive to pick it up
A few hours but worth it. I always planned on upgrading it due to the green painted scabbard. Glad I did not. Anyone else want to contribute to this or just say or show the maker mark.

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A short list
- ACS scales Solingen brass cross guard
-ACS scales Solingen Eagle B stamp brass cross guard



- AWS scales Alcoso in script (length ways) steel crossguard sawback
- AWS scales Alcoso in script ( length ways) steel crossguard
- No maker on blade (looks sandblasted) steel cross guard sawback
-No maker on blade brass crossguard. Maybe cleaned?

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This list took about 2 hours looking at photos on the internet. Not even looking at closed sales on dealer sites yet. So Alcoso in script length ways on my navy ricasso means late dagger yes or no? Brass looks to have been abandon for steel early vs late. I only see sawbacks on steel crossguard machetes so far. Eagle B stamping must be rare I only see mention of it from a Mr. wotka. Who I remeber from this forum years back.
All canvas tropical type frogs did see a leather frog but unknown if was added or not
And no not a single luft mark to be found yet. The photo evidence black and white can't be refuted.
Out on a limb here brass handle brass cross guard. Water police anyone?? I do know the police were into aviation but limited I would take any help here!!

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I have an Alcoso Water Protection Police with the script lengthwise logo. The pommel and crossguard are brass but the release button is steel.

Never made the connection between sawback machetes and steel. Will have to check my files and see if I can see anything.


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Billy only reason I hit upon that was I collect flare guns. A PT boat flare gun is mostly brass. I started looking at Alcoso machetes and was wondering why the change to steel from brass.

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Was waiting for anyone else to chime in
So yes ok the last tm used by the firm was AWS scales with Alcoso and Solingen in script.
If you own Carter's fine reference this info and more all on it.

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I'll continue to have a conversation with myself. No biggie. I can't go back and edit a post after so long. I have found one other eagle B machete. So I will assume that marking to be rare. I can't look at everything but closed sales on dealer sites, ebay, I tried to sign up on another forum to chime in on a machete thread. Luckily it didn't work. I won't go door to door with this.BUt!!!! This item has been mis identified from the start due to a photo or a few photos.
What's the hang up easy
- no photo in a factory catalog
- no order to id this as a luft machete
- no luft acceptance mark or marks ( fighting knife, lift dagger have this at times, luft flare guns have marked) on any machete I've ever seen

So let's call it a Alcoso machete for lack of a cool term. Then do sub designation Police marked, Sawback, iron hilt, brass hilt etc ...in reality that's never gonna happen it's forever ided wrong a Luftwaffe. So ok but the police marking is the oddity maybe??
Let think as if it were Rohm ground full partial each carries a particular place and each a price difference. But important is each has its own place. Plus looksl at how the family was purged from the Alcoso firm as time went on. The change from older ACS scales logo to AWS and Alcoso in script is a big deal, if collecting Alcoso navy daggers yes? The script is the final mark means a late dagger. At least that what we understand. Again I reference Anthony Carter's volume 1 for the basics here. I'm going at this a different way Monday morning maybe we can get some help from the top down. Or at least get the ball rolling a bit more.
Here is a photo to prime the pump a bit. If you had this trademark on a dagger what time frame would you place it.????

IMG_20220515_154125338~3.jpg (72.97 KB, 54 downloads)
Last edited by BretVanSant; 05/15/2022 08:48 PM.
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Brett,

The subject is a fairly rare machete so you are not likely to get a lot of answers from owners.

Our hobby has other mis-named items like 'anodized' scabbards.

And ... they did use many trademarks

Alacoso AWS 7.jpg (83.3 KB, 50 downloads)
Alcossa.jpg (26.43 KB, 50 downloads)
Alcosa AWS.jpg (27.18 KB, 50 downloads)
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Dave
Those are some nice looking daggers. The last one, that show's a little of the grip, looks really nice. I like to see that nice fit of the grip.
Just a note on the Luftwaffe machete, or whatever machete it it is. My looking the past few days, I saw on fjm44.com, a photo of a Luft machete in period use. You have all probably seen it already.
Ed

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Ed,
I hit upon that site. Several photos all nice. The one image I had seen before the other black and white I had not. Some nice stuff on that site Ed!

Dave, yeah a long shot for sure. not looking for the sky to part here just use the info we know as solid and apply to this machetes as well.

And a bit of a boost to keep the grey matter going.....someone post the eagle B info if you see your way to do so. In some detail if you can please

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Ed & Brett,

Grab the pictures and post them here if you can

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.not a huge fan of screen grabs but..... Mr. Joe Wotka who was the member on this forum who was driving the topic years ago was posting on another forum gentlemans militaria something. I seen several names there I remember from this forum. His core question is was are any Luft marked? I ever tried to sign up there and gave up. Anyway Mr. wotka knows that the survival kits has drillings snow shoes etc... Flare gun all luft marked. Snow shoes I'm not sure of.. to to refresh or start over as it were. Here is the photo that is most well known

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I'll try to get as much as I can on images but I'm sure at some.point a complaint will surface. I'm not looking to cause issues here other than solve a issue that has persistently been wrong in my view or maybe not researched well enough. This is from IMA a closed sale. Note the trademark, sawback and iron hilt not brass!

Screenshot_20220516-044203~2.png (326.58 KB, 42 downloads)
Screenshot_20220516-044141_2.jpg (35.87 KB, 42 downloads)
Last edited by BretVanSant; 05/16/2022 10:12 AM.
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Closed eBay auction brass hilt note the police stamp. That makes 2 mine and this sold machete.

Screenshot_20220516-051507_2.jpg (37.66 KB, 38 downloads)
Last edited by BretVanSant; 05/16/2022 10:50 AM.
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At some point, could the Police eagle "B" have been mistaken as a Luft Waffenamt? If so, then obviously the "B" stood for "Bombers" wink


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Vern, due to resize etc it takes me a time post these but will get more
I would ask any members to post info on the eagle B stamp. It's on k98 bayonets also. I sold off most of my guns lugers etc but it's not a mistake made by gun collectors. So far more machetes are shown with out the eagle B as plain brass or iron hilt with sawback and not. I can't say 100% but I would see that as a entry level mistake. Again my view only. It's quite obvious if it was mistaken as B for bomber then it's a glaring omission and needs to be corrected also. Bret


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