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#354597 05/10/2022 04:47 AM
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Ok I've ran through all the references I have. Maybe I've missed something date wise. The 1st model rlb Leader came out in 1936. Anyone have a closer date?? Like down to the. Month or so?
Next the 2nd model with the added ramp came out in 1938 again it's basic stuff here. Anyone have a date that gets is closer like early 1938 mid 1938??? Until I get the time to get great pics and resize etc. I'm going with standard questions here. But would appreciate getting the dates closer than say just 1938. I don't see any signs that it's a converted 1at model. Again till I get good photos these are random questions. Looking for copies of orders to try and get these 1936 and 1938 dates more locked down to maybe a month etc. For now
Bret Van Sant

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Bret,

Most 2nd model Leaders daggers are converted 1st model daggers. The very early ones show waffenamt marks on the crossguard ends, possibly the scabbard throat too. These will have nickel crossguards, most 2nd model leaders I’ve seen have had nickel hardware.

Occasionally you’ll find a Leader dagger with a bright, obvioysly aluminum guard and pommel. These are unquestionably true 2nd model daggers not converted from earlier pieces. The few I’ve encountered were either Ernst Witte marked or unmarked.

Sorry that I can’t help on specifics for the rolling out of the daggers.


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Billy, yes no stamps to the quill ends I've had time to shoot some pics. Will need to resize etc. Blade is dedicated 1 30 37 just wondering if someone knows the date of the orders to change the single loop to have the center ramp. maybe a question that's not answerable? I just can't collect on condition anymore. It not a piece I would have sprung for but ..... The dates dedication splits the time of the 2 models. Chances are nothing big just like the new mystery.

Last edited by BretVanSant; 05/11/2022 01:31 AM.
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Both quill ends

IMG_20220510_194726153~2.jpg (15.25 KB, 189 downloads)
IMG_20220510_194734134~2.jpg (21.15 KB, 189 downloads)
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Here is the dedication date. Over the years a quick cheat to enhance dedications or things done lightly shine a flash light at the blade. The etch or engraving reflects light at a different rate than the surrounding area with nothing. It's a cheat guy but may help some of you. So where it looks like white paint added to make the date stock out it's just light. No harm done to the blade. No excess white paint to remove. Just another work around.

IMG_20220510_194848341_HDR~2.jpg (28.59 KB, 170 downloads)
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Bret, the color of the crossguard is unusual but I believe it due to the closeness and diminishment of resolution from the original. If forced to guess, I’d say that was a 1st model nickel Leader dagger produced after the waffenamts were used and subsequently converted to a 2nd model.


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Billy, best guess I could come up with also. That it must have fallen in-between the cracks for the cross guard stamping. My photos do indeed suck. The dagger is no safe queen and that's oddly is ok with me. So it has a ton grit and grime and finish darkening.

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Hope these are better resized images. Its what I got.

IMG_20220510_194734134.jpg (52.11 KB, 145 downloads)
IMG_20220510_194726153.jpg (49.39 KB, 145 downloads)
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Hello gents, I cannot narrow down the changing date from 1st to 2nd model but here are my three different models RLB leader daggers. I think at least the change itself is easily to be seen.
The first one an early WaA marked ALCOSO, doubtless a period converted 1st model.
The second one what I think a mid period (nickle silver parts but 2nd emblem) as 2nd model manufactured Klittermann & Moog.
The third one the afore mentioned, unmarked 2nd model with aluminum grip parts, manfactured as 2nd model.
Regards,

2.JPG (102.44 KB, 119 downloads)
3.JPG (107.67 KB, 119 downloads)
1.JPG (109.54 KB, 119 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Wotan, hi as always thanks for the great photos. Frankly the reason I purchased this was the dedication on the blade. Obverse and reverse. The date was the kicker. I have to think maybe the quill end stamp was.missed and or the ramp could have been added or maybe a true 2nd model that was presented to the fellow later than the date shows? Possibly just an anomaly ?? The condition is not prime but that was no a major concern. Thanks for your response always appreciated!👍👍👍👍👍

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Wotan, beautiful examples!


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Wotan Klittermann & Moog must be a very maker of these, i have never sen another


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Great examples Wotan. I have seen one Klittermann & Moog example previously. From memory, this is probably the same one. Beautiful lineup.


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Who are the known makers of 1st model officers? I believe I have seen them by Alcoso, Weyersberg and Kroneck(Witte). Any others?

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SMF also made a small number of 1st model Leaders.


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