UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Edged Weapons Accoutrements Forum Trying to set the record straight Tags

If possible which I doubt I can. My research was abandon years ago.I had a lot of help from Tom Johnson with stories etc.. DD Harris John Merling and a cast of others...Maybe a few of you hit upon my website years ago. But not enough of anyone looked. Most sold off to members here Barry Brown bought the Alcoso wax paper wrap.sure miss that guys imput!!

Puma variants sold pack variants sold etc... I hit upon an old army thread wich I looked and seen F v.d..K but the maker was close but not it. Here are a few that I had left found rather in a dusty bowl. Most are export tags but some I did keep.. the SOS link from Tom W. With Craig is all I comment. He shows a trident tag which is rare indeed all are to some extent. But the red and white triangle tag came on a straight razor 100% not saying you can't put it on a trident dagger but really what's the point anywho for what it's worth a few I have left. If I can get my old files back up I can show others maybe even some screen shots of my old page.

Trident is on a Labor Leader. F .v.d.K I had thought was another maker I had thought I had but did not. Peres is on an SA. the twin deer heads one good the 2 smaller ones were for export. More soon!

Images

Export tags 2 sizes twin deer heads

The export tags you would find on say razors, scissors etc sold to the public in the US and other countries.

Nice tags Bret! I would say all of them are fairly scarce if not outright rare. Even the export tags. Great to see these

Not sure how to feel about Craig and the SOS vid of all those tags. Some are for razors scissors etc. We can put them on anything but just to say oh they are for daggers is a bad assumption. I'm not wanting anyone to judge but. So much more exists that we don't see or miss. Glad to be back Billy it's been a spell and trying to make up for those years being gone is a joy to read all this new stuff!!

Ok so you wanna go down the rabbit hole now??? Here goes

Any ideas?? Or if you can read it then easy peasy

Bret

I assume this is a box for hair cutting machines of some sort.

Gary

Gary, hi yes 100% my point is that a herder tag would be rare no matter the source bit is it accurate? Unknown and some of what happens is tags from this type of thing can be confused or mis read as a tag from a dagger. I suspect alot of what is encountered is from things such as these. I'm not casting doubt on anyone but somewhat of a dis-service to is as collectors. My old website was aiming at this time of mis identified tags. Not enough is known and if collectors are randomly adding tags incorrectly then the problem is that. Again not casting doubt on anyone but fact is it looks to me as if that's what is going on at times not all. The time but at times. I'm on a slippery slope here poised to make a small issue a big one. No my intention.

Bret

You used to be able to buy, straight razors and in some cases these hair clippers in a box with the tag still in there, rare to find them nowadays as so many were sought after for the exact reason you have stated, lets not beat about the bush, some of those Tags that Craig had at the SOS were such as these not for daggers at all, I saw them at the show and it was obvious.

How about this one, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it as I have never handled an Alcoso tag, I may have seen one or two in the past but cannot remember what they looked like.

Cheers

Gary

I'm not looking to get banned or thread locked etc. I had a huge medical issue and I needed to come back to this for many reasons. The hobby that is.
So here goes.
I had a website for the most part dedicated to the photo logging and types of tags. I had hand fills of hits on it over a span of years. Some members here had seen it but not enough to continue it. I had ask Craig around the time he was working on the HJ pin back book about doing something with tags or starting to anyway. No great deal but expand on what we know and find the gaps. That's what people who are passionate do fill gaps he was deep into the pin back book. So I contacted Tom Johnson. About an addendum to a volume on tags alone. An update to where we are or were. He related stories to me about personal finds in Germany on buying trips etc.. all I still have. I would email when I found a new tag or variant. People who helped me along the way were DD Harris, John Merling, various collectors here.
I felt as if Tom had done his bit for king and country so I allowed the stories to come with no expectations. In a moment I had to sell of many tags in my collection to fund a car repair. You don't own a fast car and expect it's gonna be cheap.
I gave up my website and research headed back to work and a new life with my wife and daughter. Lurking here and collecting at a rather poor pace I had new passions and it was good. I would buy on a rarity I got into table medals door plaques and other smalls flare guns skulls marbles anchors ejection seats bicycles life my wife and my daughter.
April 2nd I was air lifted to UofM campus in Minnesota with a tear between the wall of my heart. Life caught up! I had 3 weeks before even getting to the start line. No moving just being. I walked out in 14 days after surgery. In that time I decided it was time to get back to less work more passion. So here I am. But I had watched few of Wittmanns vids on you tube.
I see one fellow at SOS or ovms had a tag that damn bet that was mine! But realistically no.
The I get to his vid of SOS this year. Craig with tags galore. I sold all my bagged and tagged items here John Merling Barry Brown etc.. Damn I missed it! I bailed too early. But what wait the Trident tag that was from a firm had to be for a dagger. NO it was not I bought a tag and razor such as that together. It could have came on a dagger but 100% that's how I bought it I was fuming. That's a lie or at bet a guess and at worst a dis service to every collector who spent a dime on this hobby. Wrong answers are common here but wrong guessing is not the idea. See etched bayonet threads for the pick up on that!!!
In the hospital calm resting I was angry. Not because of my work was overlooked. I was connecting dots from apt of book Skippers, Johnson, history of Solingen makers etc. Damst member here. I am a collector of medium means. But correct answers are needed. Not best guess. I couldn't email T W fast enough. He knows the hobby I won't quote that which we know so well. I have a tagged Peres dagger and had sent photos to Tom for a sa book. It's not the start of my collection but very proud to have her!
So Craig with tags thrown about on a cardboard sheet wanting to buy bags. Are you freaking kidding me!! So caught my breath and began to download TW on the past.

Catch my breath a bit
Alcoso tags I've seen 2variants 2 size variants an AWS an ACS and mini of same tags.all from hair clippers. If you collect you know the history of this firm. Export tags many times say Germany tags bound for inside the EU at the time pre 45 from what I can tell do not.
Years ago when this dagger site 1st started a guy named Mike Hansen had tags 2new was his name he got out of the hobby which at the time I couldn't see why. Fully get it now. Try as you may some people wish the hobby to exist for money only. But to hear some say a tag is for some other reason than what I have seen with my own eyes is a bit disheartening. Assuming or guessing is ok but cause you buy it does not make it fact.a person like Damast has the period references to show much of what is known today. Ive not even seen what he has but I trust his view and opinion. Johnson's stories carry real weight to me Every PS tag know said came from him he bought them all at once sure maybe some gi snagged a bagged tagged example but that would have been the exception not the rule. If TJ preserved anything written I don't know. But I have his stories. Many people collect at a higher level than I do it's based on money. No harm no foull. I will not allow some speculation to rule the mob at least without doing to right thing. 2new could fund his collection easy. I work at it now suddenly Craig wants a mint Peres dagger???? For what 2 or
3 tags he owns? I remember the gurka knife deal also.
It's about the Benjamins ok so say that.
I can't correct this behavior but I can warn people of the suspect nature of some tags. While real right as rain maybe not for a dagger. This all ends well so you know. In the heat of that I find a dagger dedicated in in 1937 but the model year changes in 1938 11 months difference so what's wrong in that picture? So hard reset time is that model 11 months early? Dedicated late but presented on a day 11 months before?? I've come back and want to let everyone know partial truth does not work here.
I hope that scratches the surface. Don't ban me or lock me down. I just need to let people know what's going on here is not 100% fact but some guess work on his part when fact are so very important.
Bret

Gary also.
I sold Barry Brown some alcoso wax paper also

To the tag shown, looks ok gold blue and gold red ACS AWS tags. Smaller dime sizes never seen on anything. I only sold bagged tagged items with bayonets. Sold single tags.
I won't place them on anything other than to display. I just seen smf was linked nto SS late run daggers. Per Paul at lakeside

Would you consider having your hang tag photos made into a gallery for the GDC Reference Library? Having good photos of tags identified for daggers, swords, razors, etc. would be very helpful for collectors

Vern
Yes indeed I would however. Old photos from the last 20 years are on these small storage drives. I need to figure out how to look at. I was in the hospital for 32 days and most everything is more than a challenge. Plus I am uncertain if I can access them. So it may be of little use. But an amazing offer. ✌️🤙👍 I just don't know if I can help that much.
Bret

Bret
Hope your recovery goes well. The Tag gallery sounds great, I for one would love to see it happen.
Not sure anyone on this site is more computer and internet challenged than me.
Vern is awesome at these things, and could help with pictures and all else, I'm sure.
Hope it comes to life in the future. Would like to see any other one you can post. I could use a good Alcoso for a Heer.
Take care and good luck
Ed

I''ll start pulling the few photos I have and any from here to set up a sample. We can go from there

Amazing Vern!! This will go the mile to help fix this. So very much appreciated!!!

Have 21 so far, 14 with both sides and 7 front only.

Vern
I need to go to best buy to see about access to the old photo storage things. I doubt anything is going to be ground breaking but some photos I hope. Variant tags color etc. Hope it works out. Your hard work is greatly appreciated

Here's a nice Spitzer Army dagger I picked up at the last SOS show, the dagger is in exceptional condition and I have no doubt that the tag has always been on there, perhaps one that Vern could add to the Gallery if he hasn't already got an example. The tag is approx 38mm (1.5") in diameter.

Gary

Very nice and much appreciated. Anyone else have one to add?

Here are a couple for swords.....

It all starts here! Wow beautiful guys thanks Gary!

Baz's post above, giving the diameter is a good idea. So is showing both sides.

Gary
Both the Daggers, the Spitzer and Alcoso look great, would really like to see them both if you have the time.
Ed

I have photos of both Holler and Puma tags but they are very poor. Anyone have good photos of these? And here are a couple of rare tags. It's hard to see but the red one is for Voos....

I sold a plucker a few years back but still can't get to the photos but it looked like that exactly. Vern wow man all great stuff👍

Vern
I did find my old account some pics maybe you found those already? Plucker for sure the other out of focus PDL l

That is your Plucker. Photos were in the "For Sale" section. Also have the PDL I have 33 now but don't have front and back for 8 of them.

Are flag tags rare?

Factory dagger and sword tags are fairly rare, some are exceptionally so

Vern
You have this also then??
Barry Brown had saved the photos I put on the 4 sale section of an alcoso tag he purchased from me.

Funny man Barry Brown! What a cool cat! And now gone. Great email exchanges with a guy with an amazing collection. I'm sure he bought the Alcoso wax paper from me. I hope he did that's what I remember.
that was almost me 33 days ago. About time to walk out of my story. Luck opportunity and preparation stepped in. Sure wish I had stayed around here more and kept in contact with people ! Not making that mistake again!!
Bret

Getting into some.older images now!!

Bret
Why the different colors on the Alcoso tags. Gary's looks blue, but could be faded black. Yours is red, and I have seen black, all with orange and gold.
Are they all prewar, or are they different time frames, or possible postwar??
Ed

Ed, that's the bigger question. I've seen some tags come with hair trimmers. But at the same time you see them on daggers and bayonets. Collectors add them all the time. What irks me is the assumption that all were for daggers. I put one on a a alcoso hammered navy. More questions than answers. Maybe if the Germans didn't take the firm.... So many questions. They can't be all right answers.

Yes, it is quite amazing the length the German's went to in there quest to make there Officers and NCO's, and even the enlisted men, look good in dress and in the field.
I mean there was a pretty hefty war going on. But they pursued right to the end.
I really do not think we will really ever know a lot of the answers.
That alone keeps it captivating.
Ed

Yes, it is interesting to see a factory control tag on an RZM HJ or SA.

Hello Brent

Back in the day I had a few loose ones and only a couple on daggers!

Never know when they were added!

I think its a good topic and see if i have pics!

Now here is a sweet mint Rad owned by Patrice! I see a tag but when it got there who knows!


PVON

2

Gets the heart pumping seeing this dagger!!!!!!!!!!!


PVON

Sweet!

Any tagged HJs in Hogles new book?

Or Waynes bayonet book!

Maybe John can add what he has seen!

Yrs ago many tags were 25.00

PVON

Pvon wow wish I could shoot nice images like that my Trident RAD Leader has the same blue pannels as it should be!! That's the juice baby✌️🤙👍

A quick progress report. The Tag gallery will probably be ready to review by this weekend. The gallery currently has over 50 tags, including a few seen on unmarked knives and bayonets declaring the blade to be "Solingen Quality". I have a couple of tags from firms that are not known to produce edged weapons. A few tags, including Henckels, Holler, and a paper Puma, are very poor quality. Hopefully, someone has a better photo. The attached tag was thought by some to be post war, but was seen on an early HJ Knife

Vern
For a fact I had purchased a trident razor with this exact tag on it. Not marked m7/19 I can't speak to if it was used as a dagger tag or a stop gap fill from maker marked to rzm.code. the tag I had like this had no ink stamp at all just red white printed. I guess this the the slippery slope we all tread on. I'll continue to dig for images. Thanks for your hard work and everyone who helped out here.
Bret

Members,
I should have taken a breath before leaving the ICU but I had to change the way collectors see this. I had drive before my illness and it's still present and crystal clear. I should have put this up 1st but wanting to solve some suspect behavior before it became fact was my motivation
Thanks to Gary for making me clear the air !!
Don't let this sugar cube device tagged by Ed. Wüsthof become something it is not

I made the mistake of collecting tags but with the reference of how they were found. That is now some of the problem. This piece was stored and I've spend days trying to locate it. I wish I had kept tags with items I found them on. A dis-service to the hobby and to collectors. I let my obsession rule the facts. That was a gross error in judgement but something that needs to be corrected. Back when Skipper wrote his book. It was a reference only. More of things I can't afford or buy. But dreams. I do not have unlimited means I was trying to build a collection of minty tagged items. I learned how to find these over time and became rather good at it. But without correct reference to how when where I just added to the confusion. I hope the Trident sugar cube picker clears up my mistake and the reason I desperately want to fix this.
Bret Van Sant

Yeah, funny how that works

Vern, I can honestly say I never seen this side of it till TWs video. I knew that the mistake I made others make and how it's crazy hard to say I made a mistake. So there ya have it. I'll spend the remainder of my time fixing what I can. I would urge anyone lurking to rejoin or join. No matter what level you collect or wish to collect. This place is a great resource. And you can bitch about locked threads or banned members or what ever. The hobby is the juice. So let's get back to the basic reason we are here love of the stuff. Let's not confuse a tag on a sugar cube device as a dagger hang tag. Thanks guys for letting me try to clear up some messed up things

Hi Bret dagger tags have been an anomaly since I began colllecting in 1982. Both Toms and other dealers have offered a selection of dagger tags to the collector over the years. Tom J had the largest selecton. Can you post here which tags in your opinion are period pre 1945 dagger tags? The Eickhorn metal tag with insert is probably the most iconic ( I believe I purchased my last example from you on GDC years ago) Thanks cheers and best, Ryan

Ryan ,
Yeah the sugar cube grabber is the only thing I saved where the tag stayed on the piece. It was a fluke. It was so small I figured that's not even gonna pass muster to show it. Alcoso had a small tag. Nickel sized. Thought if I ever found a mini that was stone mint id put the small tag on it. That's the issue here. I'm not the only person doing this. And that's the problem.
What is real?? Eicks, puma metal tags, p/s per a Tom Johnson story. Said he purchased a horde of them on trip to Germany. He had never seen them before that. PS factory . The Schmidt tag Vern shows is killer man!! Love it!
So let me be clear. I'm still all about the tags Mike Hansen aka 2new was a member here and a tag collector. I was on him about how where do you find them? He never gave it. But I did find the path to them. Just snagged another one late last week. But for the right reasons this time.

Here is another Herder

The one I show is on scissors. The tag will stay on them😜 Vern, I like the looks of the one you show.. Bret

As these ails were between myself and the late Thomas Johnson
I see no reason not to post them. It's information. The photos I can't pull up so maybe the info will be of some use. You will see occasional reference to GDC it's not my intent to stir any I'll will they were observations only between myself and Johnson.
Vern if not allowed I will delete.Bret
February 16, 2009

Dear Bret:

Thank you very much for your incoming email messages of earlier today. You have one leg up on me, as I have never seen a David Everts factory control tag. Although this one may have come off of a deerfoot hunting knife, I am sure the same control tags must have been used on their Third Reich dress daggers as well.

In regards to the Klaas tag, I am sure that you are right in your assumption that the blank space was left open to enter the appropriate Klaas model number.

You certainly are not =E 2boring me to tears”, Bret, as you have even shown me something in your emails that I have not seen in the past (the David Everts factory control tag).

In answer to your question about, do I have a period Alcoso factory catalog, I actually have two different Third Reich Alcoso factory catalogs. I have the standard Third Reich Alcoso catalog which has been reprinted, but, by the way, not reprinted by Rex Reddick as Joe Wotka states, but was reprinted by Frederick Stephens in England. In addition to that catalog, I also have an ultra-rare Alcoso factory catalog that shows all of their Third Reich miniature pieces. Unfortunately, the machete is not shown in either of my two original Alcoso catalogs.

Yes, Bret, for some unknown reason a number of the GD Forum members seem to like to take “cheap shots” when not warranted.

All the best, Bret, and I hope this clears up your questions. Thanks again for sending along the color photo of the latest control tags.

Sincerely Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

More emails.

February 18, 2009

Dear Bret:

Thank you very much for your follow-up email of earlier today. I appreciate your kind words about my reference books, and if you get the opportunity, you might mention on the forum that all of my eight volumes of Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich are presently being translated into Russian. Volume I and Volume II are already in print, and Volume III is presently at the printers. Additionally, I am also negotiating with individuals in the Czech Republic to sell the rights for all eight volumes to be translated and printed in the Slovak language. I think that speaks pretty well for whether the boo ks are meaningful or not.

On the issue of tags, Bret, the Solingen manufacturing companies purchased their metal tags from outside suppliers. I tracked one manufacturer down in Solingen to see if there were any left over tags from the period, but of course the metal ones were long gone. However, I was successful over the years to turn up some of the paper tags.

Please do send the scans of your Alcoso and any other oddball tags. We did not find any attachments to your email.

All the best, Bret, and I look forward to future correspondence. Please be sure to visit our website at www.JohnsonReferenceBooks.com.

Sincerely Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

I'm reference to the PDL metal tag


March 1, 2011

Dear Bret:

This is a follow-up to my secretary’s email to you dated 24 February. As Sherry explained, I was out of town attending the SOS Show and just returned last evening and am getting caught up with the mail.

Thanks very much for sending along the digital color scans of your P.D. Lüneschloss quality control tag. I have had one or two of these Lüneschloss tags on dress bayonets (but never a dagger or sword) in the past.

All the best to you, Bret, and I look forward to future correspondence. Incidentally, I did not think that we had had one of these company tags in the past, but once I saw your color scans (as they say, “a picture is worth a thousand words”), I do remember handling either one or two duplicate tags through JR&BM years ago.

Sincerely Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
John Reference Books & Militaria

More emails Krebs info here



July 8, 2009

Dear Bret:

Just a short note, as I am leaving in a matter of minutes for the airport, but, I did want to acknowledge your reply.

Your em ail reminded me about the Kronen Krebs tags. I also bought a large s ack of these from Atwood at the same time as the Carl Julius Krebs bag of tags. I had forgotten about the Kronen Krebs tags, as I think they have all been sold by JRB&M.

You are absolutely correct, as one was only one sided, and the other one (which looked very similar) was double sided.

< FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>All the best, Bret, and=2 0I look forward to future20correspondence.

Sincerely Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

Members, the emails I'm sharing are not in order so some info comes out of left field. To share all emails would be pointless. Some are observations from me again. I'll upload more as I get to them.
Bret

I've tried to find the emails with more info than not. Here is a cool story about PS tags from Tom Johnson

uly 7, 2009

Dear Bret:
Thank you very much for your incoming emails of 6 & & July. Yes,=2 0I think I can safely say that the origin of ALL of the PS tags was JRB&M. As I mentioned, Paul Seilheimer’s grandson provided me with all of the leftover tags that he had, and there must have been close to 25 to 30 tags, all in mint condition.

Incidentally, what was Chip Gambino’s asking price for the PS tag? Do you remember?

In regards to your question, did I purchase bags or other factory related items fr om the man, I did indeed purchase a large number of orig inal, unused Seilheimer factor y paper bags for bayonets.&nbs p; They are not wide enough to accommodate dagger crossguards. When I got these bags they were filthy with decades of dust, grime, and dirt and I should have left them that way, because after we cleaned them up they now appear to be too new. Nevertheless, they are original, but it is hard to convince collectors of that fact.

We did not receive any photos of the Garantie t ags, Bret, so could you please resend these scans to us? I will get back to you as soon as I have had the opportunity to print the scans of the two other Garantie tags. I personally am not aware of Ackermanncher being a maker, but if it was a knife maker, I probably would not have any information on that firm in my records.

All the best, Bret, and t hanks for these latest emails and scans. Please be sure to visit our website at www.JohnsonReferenceBooks.com.
< /div>
Sincerel y Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

Ackermann & Co. of Solingen-Remscheid, tradename Ackermanncher, produced wood and metal working tools and saws.

So a question are you reading these emails? If no ok if you are and if you are did you spot a glaring omission by Johnson in the 1st email I posted from him? I won't go off topic here but raise the question of Luftwaffe machetes?

That would indeed merit a separate topic

Going back over pics I took at Max,as time permits will look at what I might have took pic of!





PVON

b

Tom always had cases of stuff

A few from 2011


PVON

Thanks man very nice!!

Thanks Paul and Bret for posting cheers et al Ryan

Tags are still being used.......

Vern
The 2 tags from knecht in the gallery I put up show Germany on them. That would be for export basis only. That should be noted or maybe put them in a spot for export tags?
Bret

I'll note it in the description and bring the gallery online this afternoon

This is a link to a gallery of Factory Inventory tags. Anyone who would like to contribute to the gallery can post them in this thread or email the photos to me at vern@germandaggers.com. The gallery is also linked in the GDC Reference Library. Enjoy

https://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/Tags.php

What I find works well is just looking at period photos and advertisements from period trade Journals etc.. .
As I'm sure it is posted already many tags are just plain post1945 made and many may be period but were not (usually) or at all used on daggers swords bayonets..
There has been some disinformation posted here and much more printed in current Military magazines
For instance the (Solinger Fach Arbeit) was also used for bayonets daggers and swords before 1946. There is also two different colors and the two colors do make a difference on what they might be on.. this tag should not be in the export file.. Source of this information is multiple trade journals and period advertisements and leaflets concerning these two color of tags with photos and drawings.
There is some good information here but some of this posted is based on opinion and a leap of faith.
You have to look beyond e-bay and the internet..
P.S. I own original cutting and stamping (Embossing)dies for some Solingen tags. One of them is a pre1946 export tag for Klass to the South American market.

Thank you for the compliment, Yes I was standing right there when the Tag video was made at SOS. It was done behind my table.

I just have taken more time to read the posts WOW Bret you totally get it about period sources.

Made the correction for the "Solinger Fach Arbeit" tag. Thanks for the correction. Any other tags or information you wish to share would be greatly appreciated.

Damast, thanks man 👍✌️🤙

Found this on the internet.....

The little sugar cube grabber has that tag from 1967.
FYI I've also been in contact with Johnson Reference Books and nobody is continuing and logging of images or information per tags. So in my view this here is the best way to stop the flow of spurious information., before someone legitimizes tags that are definitely postwar!!

Thought you would like that

I've got a new purchase in the wings (I hope) or I would be tempted to pull the trigger here. So guys this is part of the issue, Crux of the problem if you will. I'm not against adding a legit tag to a dagger that is worthy but.....this area is grey!! I guess if anyone sees a Schmidt dagger with a tag pop up soon then ya know!! The tag looks great btw!!

Vern best shot of the tag sorry.

Nice. I can work with that

So, do we now need to do all the research to determine if a firm that made Daggers, swords, knives, shears, clippers, razors, and other cutting items, had a different tag for each?? Or did they use one tag for everything??
Or one tag for Military items, one tag for civilian items, one tag for farm items?? That will be almost impossible, I would think.
Bret, thanks for a very informative thread that is very interesting. Vern, thank you for your hard work, I like the gallery.
Ed

Ed,

I suspect that the firms that made daggers, swords, knives, shears, clippers, razors, and other cutting items all had their own ideas and that no two were alike, and that some had more than one tag for a specific type.

As you say, hard work.

Ed,
I know I sound like a broken record here. The way I see it is this. Back in the 50s and 60s you could buy daggers swords etc from places like Museum of Historical Arm or Robert Ables and host of others. Now we can reference Johnson ,Wittmann, Carter, the list continues etched bayonet book is a great reference! But as a kid I had no clue Johnson was printing books. Only when I was older did I see that. So imagine you buy an army dagger from Robert Ables or the like it has luft hangers or Social welfare hangers. How would you know? The background had not been done. RAD leader with teno hangers. But as the hobby grew knowledge also grew. Some things we may never know. But people continue research. Maybe we will never know the answer to your question. But we can log photos of items stories of where certain lots of tags came from etc ...Man I wish I had the answer or answers. I don't. But I've been in contact with a person at JRB and nobody is continuing Tom work of just saving image files.. I'm not crazy smart nor do I have deep pockets to buy everything. But this is needed before it gets out of hand and we see tags from the 60s on period daggers etc.. and they are taken as 100% fact.
That's going on right now!!! See TWs show video. Fact is I was in ICU recovery and my kid asks me are ever going to set up at the gun shows again. I had no answer as to why not. So I picked up where I left off and am desperate to fix this before it gets out of hand.
Sadly the number of contributing members here is low. I know the spin from people with more answers than me. It's I don't need the hassle of a forum or the backlash. I can't beg anyone for facts but I sure as hell try to stop anyone from putting a suspect non period tag or a period item. I'm not sure it is fixable but we don't put luft hangers on army daggers do we? It has to start somewhere and this is the where the rubber meets the road. Maybe we can make a dent until someone comes along with a better idea.

These were my reference books for quite awhile.

Bret,

I'll see your Rudolf Schmidt and raise you a Tiger

Wow that's cool! So you guys know this is what I mean right here!! Without some pictorial facts we will be swimming in it!!