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Originally Posted by Gaspare
We're all adults,, a little bit of infighting we can take.... , BUT for those of us that are not 'dagger guys' and find this very interesting please state matter of facts [if possible]

So for us non dagger collectors trying to learn is:.

The early [or all?] etched KM daggers should not have the Malsch& Ambronn maker on them? and SAs as well?


- Guess a period catalog of all Malsch& Ambronn pieces with options/embellishments would help immensely................


Until now, kriegsmarine daggers by Malsch&Ambronn are not known. If you know 83 years have passed since their introduction. Even if such daggers were in the Malsch&Ambronn catalog, this would not mean that the company actually produced them. In the catalog of the firm of Richard Plumacher there is a kriegsmarine dagger. However, daggers produced by this company are also unknown. Fakers deliberately use the logos of companies that did not produce these daggers so that there is nothing to compare them with.

https://www.kriegsmarinedolch.de/plümacher-richard/

Best,
Oleg.


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John, 15:13

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The same story with the Firm Paul Seilheimer.
Best,
Oleg.

https://www.kriegsmarinedolch.de/seilheimer-paul/


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Oleg,,makes sense,,,thanks greatly!

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Hello Oleg,

Thank you for your input here, which is much appreciated, as you are specializing in Kriegsmarine daggers.

Though, I don't understand your comparison with that Plümacher blade, that is a 100% fabricated blade.

Do you have any examples to show of original Kriegsmarine blades, to which maker marks have been added postwar?


So the Seilheimer firm has a Kriegsmarine dagger in their catalog, but never one has surfaced yet?

In my opinion that supports the theory, that never seen Kriegsmarine dagger makers still can pop up!


Also, in Tom Wittmann book on German navy daggers, several ultra rare makers, of which I have never encountered a specimen myself are listed: Emil Voos, SMF, Anton Wingen Jr and Carl Julius Krebs. Also about 10 years ago a Kriegsmarine Klaas blade (non U9 etched) surfaced here on the forum.

What is your opinion on these daggers, of which also only 1 or 2 are known?


And finally: if you are in the hobby for quite some time, you will realize that type collecting is a rather recent way of collecting: 20 years ago, dagger collectors only wanted just 1 of each type or 3R organization in their collection. Now collections of hundreds of daggers of the same organisation exist. This explains why we still find makers that are not documented yet... also on Kriegsmarine daggers!

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/03/2021 04:30 PM.

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I just checked your website Oleg, very interesting!

I found over there all the known postwar produced daggers (with their typical makers marks) and some horrible completely fake blades like that Bonsmann...

But the period blades with added maker marks, that you mentioned higher, where are they?

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/03/2021 04:39 PM.

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Regarding the rarer maker Kriegsmarine daggers, I’ve seen two Carl Julius Krebs examples and two Klaas (non U9) examples. From memory, the parts were a little specific and couldn’t have been mixed up with loose parts from other makers.

The Krebs examples weren’t in great shape. The Klaas examples were ok enough but sold for considerable money.

Although I’ve never seen an SMF Kriegsmarine example, I do know Chip Gambino many years ago had an SMF Water Protection Police dagger. Athough I did scrutinize it, I couldn’t find anything inherently wrong with it.

Now if we’re talking a Voos or Wingen example, those would be desirable.


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Hello Herman,

the blade by Plümacher was just an example. Of course is it a 100% fabricated blade. But, in theory, one could also say that this is a rare manufacturer found only recently. OK,
let’s forget Plümacher. In your opinion, the fact that there is a navy dagger in the Seilheimer catalog supports the theory that the daggers from unknown manufacturers can still pop up.
I have a different opinion on this matter. And here's why: too much time has passed and collectors have gained quite a lot of experience. There are groups of collectors who specialize in certain types of edged weapons. You are also one of them. It may be naive, but, for example, I completely trust your opinion about Hitler Youth knives, even if it is confirmed only by your experience, and not by documents or examples. This is not a compliment, it is a fact.
About the ultra rare producers from the book of Thomas Wittmann, I saw the dagger by Emil Voss, the daggers by Karl Julius Krebs and the daggers by Robert Klaas. I cannot confirm or deny their originality. But I do not find any problems at all with the Krebs daggers. They have the same characteristics, just like, for example, Adolph Brown( *).
We should also not forget that these ultra rare producers were mentioned in Thomas Wittmann's book 22 years ago. And, nevertheless, as far as I know, the daggers of these manufacturers have not met since then collectors in real life.
It is very difficult for me to imagine that during all these long years somewhere there was dagger by manufacturer which until now has not been met by anyone.
Herman, I do not want to spoil your mood or your day. I just express my opinion on the dagger in this thread. Maybe earlier it was a WKC dagger with a plain blade. Then someone etched it and a logo. What for? I do not know. Maybe it was an experiment. Maybe it was a tentative attempt to see the collectors' reaction to this blade.
And, once again, all I have said is only my personal opinion based on my personal experience. Everyone can decide for himself whether to pay attention to this opinion or ignore it.

Best regards,
Oleg.

(*) Recently in Belgium were sold an auction a navy dagger by Adolph Braun dagger with a white grip and a navy dagger by Eichhorn with an orange grip. I assume that the former owner took apart the daggers and then confused the handles. This is in regards to the collecting experience.


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Hello Oleg,

Thank you for your honest and well argument-ed opinion on this topic, I really appreciate that, even if our views differ.

Just a couple extra comments, I would like to make from my side:

- When I found my Eickhorn SA Xmas dagger, only a decade ago: even several of the well known dealers did not know what that was.

- I have several HJ-knife versions and makers that are not in any reference book so far.

So, I believe that there still might be rare variations and makers of 3R etched weapons that are not yet generally known about.


And about this Malsch & Ambronn Kriegsmarine dagger: the blade has (next to the maker mark) a specific feature that not any WKC blade is showing!
I cannot reveal this here, because it is my verification for when another one would pop up.

So I am convinced, that the dagger was an order by Malsch & Ambronn at the WKC firm, but the blade was custom etched for them. And I believe that there must be more out there!


And finally, so far I have never encountered any authentic, period Kriegsmarine dagger, to which the maker mark has been added postwar, have you?

Or anyone else?

If so, please show them.

Thanks & best regards,

Herman


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Hello Herman,

here a pictures of an original Eickhorn with a postwar etched blade.

Best,
Oleg.


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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
And about this Malsch & Ambronn Kriegsmarine dagger: the blade has (next to the maker mark) a specific feature that not any WKC blade is showing!
I cannot reveal this here, because it is my verification for when another one would pop up.

So I am convinced, that the dagger was an order by Malsch & Ambronn at the WKC firm, but the blade was custom etched for them.

Herman,

I'm sorry, but this assumption looks illogical. If Malsch & Ambronn would order this blade by WKC, so would WKC have performed the etching with their own standard patterns. That is, this etching, on the contrary, would have to be identical to the etching from WKC and should not have the differences that you are talking about.

Best,
Oleg.


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Originally Posted by Oleg67
Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
And about this Malsch & Ambronn Kriegsmarine dagger: the blade has (next to the maker mark) a specific feature that not any WKC blade is showing!
I cannot reveal this here, because it is my verification for when another one would pop up.

So I am convinced, that the dagger was an order by Malsch & Ambronn at the WKC firm, but the blade was custom etched for them.

Herman,

I'm sorry, but this assumption looks illogical. If Malsch & Ambronn would order this blade by WKC, so would WKC have performed the etching with their own standard patterns. That is, this etching, on the contrary, would have to be identical to the etching from WKC and should not have the differences that you are talking about.

Best,
Oleg.


Hi Oleg,

Let me start by asking you the following: how many different etching patters did WKC use during the period in your opinion?

Best regards,

Herman


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Originally Posted by Oleg67
Hello Herman,

here a pictures of an original Eickhorn with a postwar etched blade.

Best,
Oleg.


Oleg,

Are you stating here that this was an unmarked, 3R period Carl Eickhorn made dagger, to whom only the squirrel mark has been added postwar by a faker?

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/04/2021 04:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
[quote=Oleg67]


Hi Oleg,

Let me start by asking you the following: how many different etching patters did WKC use during the period in your opinion?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

WKC produced blades etched with dolphins, etched with a sailing ship and without etching.

Best,
Oleg.


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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
[quote=Oleg67]


Oleg,

Are you stating here that this was an unmarked, 3R period Carl Eickhorn made dagger, to whom only the squirrel mark has been added postwar by a faker?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,
I don't know what this blade was like before the fakers etched and branded it. But you wanted to see an original post-war etched dagger, didn't you?
Best,
Oleg.


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Originally Posted by Oleg67
Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
[quote=Oleg67]


Hi Oleg,

Let me start by asking you the following: how many different etching patters did WKC use during the period in your opinion?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

WKC produced blades etched with dolphins, etched with a sailing ship and without etching.

Best,
Oleg.


Thanks for your fast reply, Oleg,

These are indeed the 3 general types of WKC-blades during the 3R period.

But I am talking about the sub variations of the main etching types, have you studied these as well?

Best regards,

Herman


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Originally Posted by Oleg67
Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
[quote=Oleg67]


Oleg,

Are you stating here that this was an unmarked, 3R period Carl Eickhorn made dagger, to whom only the squirrel mark has been added postwar by a faker?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,
I don't know what this blade was like before the fakers etched and branded it. But you wanted to see an original post-war etched dagger, didn't you?
Best,
Oleg.

Thanks Oleg,

But what I am looking for is authentic period Kriegsmarine daggers to which only a maker mark was added.

That is what some (including yourself) state here that the Malsch & Ammbronn dagger must be.

So, I am looking for Kriegsmarine dagger examples like that.... if they exist?

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/04/2021 05:50 PM.

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Herman,

I don't see the point in going around in circles. We can treat each blade with a different point or a line as a sub variation. Besides, do I understand correctly that you want to see the original etched blade, to which only the logo was added after the war? If so, how do you want to define it? I have already expressed my opinion on this blade. Perhaps it is an entirely post-war blade, or the original un-etched blade that received the etching and logo after the war. It may be that an original WKC blade, with which this dagger left the factory, was damaged (broken, rusted, etc.). Therefore, it was replaced with the blade that we see on this dagger now. Once again, for 83 years no one has seen Kriegsmarine daggers by this maker. I consider it nonsense to suggest that Malsch & Ambronn ordered one single blade from WKC and this blade has only now been found. Therefore, I think that there is no secret or sensation here.
However, you have already said in this thread that you are happy with this dirk. All is well, then, because you paid your own money for this dagger.
My opinion about this dagger remains unchanged. I wish you a lot of fun with it. As long as he stays with you, you will have any problems with it.

Best,
Oleg.


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John, 15:13

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Gentlemen,

a really interesting discussion regarding the dagger shown at the beginning.

Personally, I too have some doubts about the maker's mark, but who can say that one has seen everything? I can’t, and I have seen a lot when it comes to navy daggers.

Such individual pieces are very difficult to judge. What speaks for them is that they are almost unique. What counterfeiter with a monetary interest should go to such lengths faking it, please?
On the other hand, collectors should try to acquire pieces that can be proven by reference books or sites like Oleg’s great website. Here, it should be noted, we should keep within the scope of what we are talking about. Unfortunately, citing completely different edged weapons does not make much sense, since the maker's marks did not always match.

I think we can leave it at that.

Of course, the administrator of a specialized website will have to focus on textbook specimens.
An individual collector, on the other hand, can of course go much further and research things that are unknown but therefore in the beginning a matter of believing.
The contradiction between the two views is resolved here, which makes the hobby exciting imho.
Accordingly, we should treat each other with respect. We all want to expand and confirm the state of knowledge.

Looking forward to see more educated knowledge and examples of interesting KM Daggers.

Best;
Flyingdutchman

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Oleg,

Sorry, but you seem to be the one turning in circles here.

I asked you twice 2 very simple questions and they still remain unanswered:

- Do you know that there are different sub patterns of the WKC etch (and I am not talking about a line or a dot extra!) on Kriegsmarine daggers or not?

- Do you have seen any authentic Kriegsmarine daggers with a postwar added maker mark or not?

If you cannot answer these, just a "no" or "I don't know" is fine with me...

I am not asking you to review your opinion on the Malsch and Ambronn dagger itself, that I really don't expect, nor need.

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/04/2021 11:31 PM.

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Hello Oleg,

I just checked the WKC section of your website and got the answer to my first question over there: you don't seem to know about the different WKC patters...

By checking your section "Kopien" I also found the answer to my the second question: you don't seem to have any examples of authentic daggers with a postwar added maker mark.

Anyway, thanks for participating to the discussion here!

Keep up the information gathering!

Best regards,

Herman


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Hello Herman,

thank you for your advice. Of course I will continue to collect information. Because it is an activity that helps prevent the promotion of fakes on the market.

Best regards,
Oleg.


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Something else to consider for the participants to this topic: Malsch & Ambronn was not at all a small producer, what some still seem to believe here...

The wonderful research list of Mr Mike McAlvanah rates this company's rarity: 3/10!

What means that they probably must have produced tens of thousands of early M33 SA daggers!

Much more than companies like Puma, Paul Weyersberg, E&F Hörster, FW Höller, SMF and even... WKC!

They got the same rarity rating as Anton Wingen JR, from whom also only one (or a few?) Kriegsmarine daggers have surfaced so far...


Malsch & Ambronn certainly must have focused on their large early SA production, because during my 20 years of collecting, I found only just one HJ-knife with their famous "pumping man" mark...


Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/05/2021 02:57 PM.

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Hello,

I have now taken a much closer look at the pictures. The manufacturer's logo, which is too large and not centred, does not convince me personally.
It does not matter whether these or other logos can be found on any mass-produced SA daggers, this is a piece of the Kriegsmarine.

As long as there are no reference pieces, and there are none - I have been dealing with this subject for more than twenty years - and also no catalogue entries from that time, it will be difficult to qualify this maker's mark as original.

As long as the owner is happy with it, all is well. I hope that he will be successful in his research to prove the manufacturer for the Kriegsmarine. We would all learn from this.

Best;
Flyingdutchman

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These pictures are from items in my personal archive. I do not like sharing it on the internet..
Pictured below is the oversize postwar artwork for the logo. (with adjustments using white out) squaring arm off straight instead of a radius etc.
Than etcher reduced artwork using photography to correct size to make etching plate template.

2nd photo is of the postwar etching plate. Still with black wax resist on it.. Also of the 4 logos on the plate notice the top left logo, Radius at end of arm..
Regards:

12345_1_19.jpg (34.7 KB, 170 downloads)
123_1_19.jpg (25.81 KB, 171 downloads)
Last edited by DAMAST; 12/05/2021 05:29 PM.
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Forgot to mention There are 3 different logos here.
1. Top left radius end of arm and pump handle.. As on Hermann's Navy logo.
2. Top right NO radius on end of arm but still on PUMP HANDLE,
3. Bottom left and right seem to be last generation...
When you look at the oversize postwar logo art you can see the whiteout used to make these adjustments..

Last edited by DAMAST; 12/05/2021 06:21 PM.
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… great and interesting insights, Damast. 🙏

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Thank's James

I for one appreciate you showing some of your personal archive, pretty conclusive in my opinion, but as I have said before if the owner is happy then that's all that matters.

Cheers

Gary

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Thanks Gary and Flyingdutchman
I did not think I would have to drive it home that way (post maker mark pictures) but some of the posts were directed at me and were insulting.



Here is a Rare 38 model .. 1st collector to own it..
And now for the awkward silence on this thread..

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Last edited by DAMAST; 12/05/2021 09:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by DAMAST
These pictures are from items in my personal archive. I do not like sharing it on the internet..
Pictured below is the oversize postwar artwork for the logo. (with adjustments using white out) squaring arm off straight instead of a radius etc.
Than etcher reduced artwork using photography to correct size to make etching plate template.

2nd photo is of the postwar etching plate. Still with black wax resist on it.. Also of the 4 logos on the plate notice the top left logo, Radius at end of arm..
Regards:

Hello Damast,

That is a very interesting addition to the topic, thanks!

However, I have seen many templates like these before, inscription & motto templates, also Eickhorn and other maker marks... etc.
Some are shown in the Johnsons reference books, if believe.
I have never really understood when or were these would have been applied? Do you have seen any examples used into practice?

Anyway, the mark you show here would never fit on a Kriegsmarine blade, which is only 1.7 cm wide....
Blade etching and maker mark being etched at the same time on Kriegsmarine daggers, the one you show of 4 marks in a square certainly was not used!

So, I don't really understand, what you are trying to proof with your pictures?
But maybe you can explain?

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/06/2021 03:04 PM.

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Just was comparing those Malsch & Ambronn maker marks you posted, Damast.

They don't even come close to the mark on my Kriegsmarine dagger...

So you are really helping me with proving my dagger to be all authentic!

Thanks a lot for this!

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/06/2021 03:32 PM.

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Ok, I will start from the beginning. As this is very BASIC concepts in making etching plates..
Question?? Do you understand how etching plates are made?????

Many times the artwork for the etching plates is done many times oversize ..
Why is the original hand done artwork done oversize?????????????????????
Because through photography they reduce the original art to the correct size and have a negative.. The size on your Navy dagger..
THIS IS THAN USED TO MAKE THE METAL ETCHING PLATES... Also the artwork is done oversize to make imperfections almost unnoticeable...
The metal plate I have pictured with the logos is the same size as your postwar trademark on your Navy..
Hermann you are embarrassing yourself here and seem to be in total denial.. The logo in the metal plate was used for your navy dagger..

How can I help you ?? What more do you want to see??? You seem to not understand what the photos mean...

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Originally Posted by DAMAST
These pictures are from items in my personal archive. I do not like sharing it on the internet..
Pictured below is the oversize postwar artwork for the logo. (with adjustments using white out) squaring arm off straight instead of a radius etc.
Than etcher reduced artwork using photography to correct size to make etching plate template.

2nd photo is of the postwar etching plate. Still with black wax resist on it.. Also of the 4 logos on the plate notice the top left logo, Radius at end of arm..
Regards:

Hermann there must be a language barrier:

Read my original post again on the size of the black and white artwork..
In the second photo the logo is the same size as what is on your Navy..


To help you understand I have posted another picture..
Picture below the two lines I added shows approximately how wide a navy dagger blade is compared to logo on etching plate..

2222222222.jpg (17.28 KB, 101 downloads)
Last edited by DAMAST; 12/06/2021 05:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Originally Posted by DAMAST
These pictures are from items in my personal archive. I do not like sharing it on the internet..
Pictured below is the oversize postwar artwork for the logo. (with adjustments using white out) squaring arm off straight instead of a radius etc.
Than etcher reduced artwork using photography to correct size to make etching plate template.

2nd photo is of the postwar etching plate. Still with black wax resist on it.. Also of the 4 logos on the plate notice the top left logo, Radius at end of arm..
Regards:

Hello Damast,

That is a very interesting addition to the topic, thanks!

However, I have seen many templates like these before, inscription & motto templates, also Eickhorn and other maker marks... etc.
Some are shown in the Johnsons reference books, if believe.
I have never really understood when or were these would have been applied? Do you have seen any examples used into practice?

Anyway, the mark you show here would never fit on a Kriegsmarine blade, which is only 1.7 cm wide....
Blade etching and maker mark being etched at the same time on Kriegsmarine daggers, the one you show of 4 marks in a square certainly was not used!

So, I don't really understand, what you are trying to proof with your pictures?
But maybe you can explain?

Best regards,

Herman

hermann
If you do not understand how these plates are used than you must educate yourself as your lack of knowledge is very apparent.
Again as the logo on your Navy dagger you seem not to understand what you are looking at..
I get it your a ego type collector and your ego is hurt . But I post only the facts and if you do not understand what you see that is your problem when you go to sell the dagger.
I posted on this thread doing YOU a favor (helping to try to educate you) and you crap on me..
Do you want the name of the company who etched your blade???? Do you want to know how much the black and white artwork cost ??? IN GERMAN MARKS that is ???
I would think to you this would not make a difference, as you say (you are happy with it..)
And that says it all.

Last edited by DAMAST; 12/06/2021 05:56 PM.
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I know how etchings work, Mr Damast.

CAN YOU SHOW PIECES WHERE THIS POSTWAR TEMPLATES WERE USED ?

That was the question.

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/06/2021 05:53 PM.

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Yes, your Navy dagger
you do NOT know how they make etching plates..
Please explain what you know..

Last edited by DAMAST; 12/06/2021 05:58 PM.
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And please don't play "Smart ass" here... that will not help the topic further!

I think that you urgently need new glasses, Mr Damast!



That maker mark is not even close: the man is way to fat and the details are all wrong: check it for yourself!

Best regards,

Herman

PS: May I ask you, what you are actually collecting?

8.JPG (67.93 KB, 111 downloads)

"Het leven is een strijdtoneel!"
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Originally Posted by DAMAST
Yes, your Navy dagger
you do NOT know how they make etching plates..
Please explain what you know..

Hahaha,

Sorry, you are not to be taken serious, Damast!

This is not a topic about making etching plates; go to Utube for that!


Must be one of the JR clan, I presume?

Collecting buffed blades? The less cross grain the better?

Hahaha

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/06/2021 06:52 PM.

"Het leven is een strijdtoneel!"
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Oh Hermann
Were did that come from J.R. Clan

Now you are insulting J.R. Was that a insult or what does that mean??? ( J R clan) matter of fact ask JR.
No I belong to no clan
Read my posts and you have the correct answers.. What do you not understand...
Look at the metal plate logos..
Please explain how the etching plates are made.. Start to finish..

2222222222.jpg (17.28 KB, 104 downloads)
Last edited by DAMAST; 12/06/2021 06:27 PM.
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Those plates you show would make the most horrible, blurry maker marks, Damast: dead giveaway fake etches!

Don't tell me that you, the great specialist, does not see that?


So do you have anything else to show, or are you going to post the same thing over and over again?

And not answer my simple questions?

Best regards,

Herman

PS: Seriously, I don't have the slightest idea of what you actually collect?

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/06/2021 06:38 PM.

"Het leven is een strijdtoneel!"
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OK, who is next?

Anyone who collects period catalogs?

Maybe someone with an advanced Kriegsmarine collection finally noticed this topic ?

I am getting a bid desperate...

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 12/06/2021 06:47 PM.

"Het leven is een strijdtoneel!"
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