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#352412 11/01/2021 05:45 PM
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I have found a Kriegsmarine dagger by Malsch& Ambronn: I had never seen this maker before on a naval dagger and don't think it is shown or written about in any of the major reference books on the topic.

It's an early 3R production, with ship motif etch and hammered scabbard.

Does anyone has encountered one like these before?

Many thanks.

Herman

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Beautiful. Never seen one by that maker.


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There was a 2nd model luft dagger found by this maker a couple years ago,I don't think that one was universally liked, I can't prove it but I suspect this piece has had the maker mark added to a unmarked blade.

Gary

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Thank you for the kind words, Vern!

Thanks for your comment, Gary.
Did you ever come across an unmarked Kriegsmarine dagger with the ship etch blade, I did not...
The color, dept and texture of mark and ship etch are identical (under the strong magnifying glass), in a stamped mark i would not have believed myself, I suppose...
Also the piece remains completely untouched and will stay like that: patina on the brass of the scabbard, where the gilding got worn off could be shiny polished (like most)
And I did not pay extra for the rare mark...
Still have the compare the eagle and other features with the known makers.

Did anyone come across another one or has a period Malsch & Ambronn catalogue?

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 11/01/2021 09:43 PM.

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Every collector knows about their SA's...

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But they also made other stuff...

So there must have been a catalog from this firm...

Best regards,

Herman

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Hermann, a very interesting Navy dagger. I remember the 2nd model Luft dagger that Gary speaks of. It was sold by Johnson to an advanced collector who is a forum member here. There were a variety of questions about it and ultimately it was returned to Johnson.

Navy daggers are not something I specialize in but I agree that the sailing ship motif doesn’t jump out to me as a likely candidate for an unmarked blade but as we all know, anything is possible in this hobby. What I’m wondering is if we can identify the parts as coming from a specific manufacturer.

The thing that jumps out to me is the logo not being centered, so much so that part of the top arc is missing. I’m assuming the logo is etched?


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Yeah, I bought the M&A 2nd luft and returned it.

Too many niggling things wrong with it for my liking.

I have never seen another.

Jkhn


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The Malsch trademark was added to the Kriegs blade. We saw this with the mint 2nd model referred to above as well.

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Look how huge the logo is, and even how some of the border is missing.

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Hello gents, as Herman V. states a navy dagger with yellow grip and sailing ship etching is not something beeing produced without makermark. I for myself have not heard (nor seen) of any. For me the shown navy is a WKC one and for unknown reasons marked with the mm of MALSCH. There are lot of possiblities why this did happen, perhaps a special production (assamblance of parts bought by the WKC company - but the own mm was put on the therefore unmarked blade) for any family member of MALSCH?
I like to ask a question: Who of you have seen an army dagger produced by HARTKOPF (double devils) ??? And there is one (only one up to now worldwide) which did come directly from the family (greatson) of the former wearer/owner. BTW PACK parts.
And there are one or two more "one-of- a-kind" makermarked armies known, ask the authors of the lates army book.
Due to the nice even overall patination, the one maker parts (up to the red washer) who did NOT produce etched blades without mm (WKC did stamp thier mark so an erasing of the old maker and etching a new one is for me out of reach), I personally have the feeling that it is an original one, period manufactured navy dagger.
And I personally have no problem with the small part of the border etching missing. the MALSCH mrk is very broad and does not fit well to a navy ricasso.
Just my peronal observations and opinion, regards,

Last edited by wotan; 11/02/2021 08:08 PM.

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I have never encountered a non maker marked etched Navy blade before. So to have a 'maker mark " on this blade seems perfectly fine. Not only that ,the maker mark itself looks very good imo.

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Herman

Would you have purchased this dagger if it had a fouled anchor etch design to the blade, there are legitimate non maker marked Navy blades out there, personally I think that there are more sailing ship etched WKC' Navy's that were early than fouled anchor pieces so if the dagger is early which I believe it to be then it's more likely to have a sailing ship etch, why do you make the distinction in your first post, quite what has that to do with it being original to Malsch or not, personally after seeing the Malsch 2nd Luft that John originally bought I am still having difficulties in believing the Mark was originally etched onto the dagger during the 1933-45 period, of course there is a possibility that it is completely original, nobody was there during the period to say yea or nay, I suppose with all daggers whatever the type you have to be comfortable with it yourself, if your happy with it then that's great.

Wotan

Just to be clear are you saying that WKC didn't produce non maker marked blades or that when they did mark them it was always stamped rather than etched.

Gary

Last edited by Baz69; 11/02/2021 10:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Baz69
Wotan

Just to be clear are you saying that WKC didn't produce non maker marked blades or that when they did mark them it was always stamped rather than etched.

Gary

Hello Baz69 / Gary, I have written "...who did NOT produce etched blades without mm (WKC did stamp their mark ..." and the sentence is really missing somewhat. I have meant that WKC did not produce or use ETCHTED blades WITHOUT a makermark. At least I have never seen nor heard of any. And additionally the makermark of WKC always has been stamped therefore an erasing of the stamped and etching another mark seems to be out of reach for me.
I am aware that WKC has been one of the very few (or even the only one) manufacturers who did produce navies during the period without etch and without mm.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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The 2nd luft maker mark fit across the blade just fine.

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I have only had this piece for a year or so, I rarely buy any dagger without maker mark, it's just personal preference but this piece caught my eye purely because of the condition, condition is the one trait I look for above all else, I have always thought this piece was produced by WKC, it certainly matches the other WKC maker marked pieces I have and seems to be a match for Herman's piece he posted, mine however has the fouled anchor etch and not the sailing ship, hence my question regarding the importance that Herman put on an unmarked sailing ship blade in his reply to my post, in my years of collecting I have not seen any other WKC unmarked etched Navy bladed dagger until this one if it is indeed deemed to be by WKC but just because I haven't seen another doesn't mean there are not at least a few out there, normally I would have congratulated Herman on finding such a rarity but knowing I had an unmarked piece and knowing that the 2nd Luft had not long been found I felt it necessary to comment on the possibility of an unscrupulous faker adding a possible spurious mark, it certainly goes in Herman's favour that he did not pay a premium for it but just because unmarked etched Navy blades are extremely rare does not preclude the possibility that the mark has been added to this blade, I can't imagine the reason somebody would pick on a Navy to do this but that chance in my eyes does exist and should not be ruled out.
I have not heard of a Malsch catalouge, maybe James Brown has one, it would be interesting to see if a Navy was included, it would go a long way to adding authentication to this piece, I hope that one is found and it is deemed original but as I have said many times in the past, if the new owner is happy with it then that's fine with me, I have a few pieces that I'm sure would be called into question but I'm comfortable with them and that's all that matters.
If you think this is or is not by WKC please feel free to comment either way.

Gary

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Wotan, Mikee, Gary, John,

Many thanks for your valuable inputs concerning this Kriegsmarine dagger!
I will compare the characteristics (different parts) during the coming weekend with the more common Kriegsmarine dagger versions.
Still hoping someone has a catalog by Malsch & Ambronn...

Best regards,

Herman


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Baz69, thruely an amazing piece! What I can see from the pics WKC through and through, but having the seasnake etching.The first one I have ever seen. Again the only true saying in this hobby is "never say never".
Thank you for posting, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Wow Gary, Yep never say never. That'a a keeper!

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Superb piece Gary, I would have bought this unmarked example as well.


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The Malsch & Ambronn trademark has been added to the 2nd luft and the navy dagger complete with blade etch Panels.
100% postwar added trademark..
Some of these stayed in Germany while most were sent to a well known dealer (who is no longer with us) and sold to closet collectors (never on website) and now after some time has past seem to be surfacing.
Have the postwar trademark artwork etc. for this in my archive .
It is not fun to post these negative facts..

Last edited by DAMAST; 11/09/2021 05:19 PM.
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I notice the Malsch & Ambronn TM is also appearing on Rohm daggers

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These Rohm blades must be all fake??
Surely they are not removing a good maker mark to make a rare one?? Or are they?
Ed

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I cant believe that the SA that Fitzer shows above has just been ok'd by wittmann at the cornfield show !! and low and behold who has it but none other than walter kanzler unbelievable


Regards Sean
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What are the chances.

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James

Thank you for your insights, I can imagine it is not fun with these disclosures, I feel for Herman as I do for anybody getting caught with these fakes, I am surprised the etch panels are also added postwar, that'a very concerning.

Gary

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Don't need to feel sorry, Gary, I am VERY happy with this dagger!

Of course, I understand the skepticism of many, though some of them are a bid too predictable... as always...

Several very experienced Kriegsmarine dagger collectors (here and elsewhere) have noticed the quality of the dagger (and the maker mark!), just based on the few pictures that I have posted here and they are curious to see more of it.

Well, I have not found the time to compare it with the other 10 Kriegsmarine makers currently in my collection, yet, but more pictures are to come soon!

Thanks to everyone for participating to the post so far!

Best regards,

Herman

PS: I understand the different opinions concerning the MM, but anyone who believes that this is a fake dagger, knows absolutely nothing about Kriegsmarine daggers...

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Here are, as promised, some extra pictures.

The dagger is a full WKC product (except for the blade mark), as clearly can be see when surrounded by daggers by this maker: below 2 ship etched blades, on top 2 anchors.

Still no period "Malch & Ambronn" catalog has surfaced?

Best regards,

Herman

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Even at 400 %, the "Malsch & Ambronn" mark still looks as good as on my SA!

smile

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Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 11/12/2021 03:56 PM.

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Originally Posted by Fitzer
I notice the Malsch & Ambronn TM is also appearing on Rohm daggers

Here are some comments on the full Röhm SA posted higher in the topic:

- You should always find 10 to 50 ground and partial Röhm daggers for every full Röhm you encounter!
How many have you seen with this mark? Zero! That means this inscription was added to a very tired standard M33 Malsch & Ammbron SA blade.

- Plus: even from this very bad picture, you can see that the maker mark and the inscription are totally differently etched: color, depth... everything.

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 11/12/2021 04:56 PM.

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Hello all,

I follow carefully your posts and my conclusion is that I am still very suspiscious concerning this maker when we know that its activity has been post war active , Malsch has been the official factory allowed for FKM repairs under the DDR control ! consequently we can suppose that some tools of production were used after 1945 ...

any comments please ?

S+

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Hello Seppi,

The postwar production Kriegsmarine daggers are well known and documented (check out Tom Whitmann's Naval book for this): the 1 screw scabbards, the E&F Hörsters, the late marked Clemen & Jung, ...etc.
So it is certain that some factories continued their production after WWII ended, the WKC firm however was not one of them.

Also, those who know something about Kriegsmarine daggers, will have observed that this is not a wartime production dagger, but most likely a 1938-39 produced dagger, so the theory of continued wartime production is not an option: the dagger would be completely different.

But of course, you are free to think (or speculate about) whatever you want.

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 11/14/2021 05:29 PM.

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Re Herman ,

my opinion on Malsch & Ambronn concerns only on mainly the FKM , this KM dagger whatever its origine is a
marvel .

best.

S+

Last edited by Seppi; 11/14/2021 06:26 PM.
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https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/kriegsmarine-daggers/kriegsmarine-dagger-collection-342128-3/

Here is a non maker marked navy dagger on another forum. Post 25.

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Stay tuned for the next round of Malsch logo marked: helmets, tinnies, and Red Cross hewers :))

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Originally Posted by JR
Stay tuned for the next round of Malsch logo marked: helmets, tinnies, and Red Cross hewers :))

I actually hope that another Kriegsmarine dagger by this maker would surface to compare this one with...


And honestly, JR, do we still have to take you serious?

A dealer who states that "cross grain was a real curse for the dagger makers at the time"... when he has a batch of buffed blades to sell!

And when the bad blades are gone... cross grain becomes again a quality to look for, right?



Herman


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You continually spread more disinformation all the time. And why the forums haven't tossed your ignorant ass off is beyond belief.

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Guys ..............

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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
I actually hope that another Kriegsmarine dagger by this maker would surface to compare this one with...

Herman

I don't think this will happen. Malsch&Ambronn was not a maker of the KM daggers. Your dagger is a typical WKC product with a post-war-etched blade.

Best,
Oleg.

Last edited by Oleg67; 11/30/2021 11:37 PM.

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We're all adults,, a little bit of infighting we can take.... , BUT for those of us that are not 'dagger guys' and find this very interesting please state matter of facts [if possible]

So for us non dagger collectors trying to learn is:.

The early [or all?] etched KM daggers should not have the Malsch& Ambronn maker on them? and SAs as well?


- Guess a period catalog of all Malsch& Ambronn pieces with options/embellishments would help immensely................

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