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Am trying to find out more about the HJ Leaders (following a recent purchase of one)

I believe it was from available to Stammführer rank upwards, and then fulfilling some criteria for getting one and then getting approval from the top...

What was the criteria for getting one, ? and anyone ever speculated on the numbers awarded ?

Thanks Mark


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Interesting question, Stirnpanzer. I wonder if Herman, our Mod knows ?

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I have seen pictured some with box's (red and blue) and an award document.

and has been suggested they they had attended some sort of training course and if passed were entitled to one. (but not 100% on this bit)


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Hello Mark and Dave,

The HJ fuhrer dagger was not a dagger that any HJ-leader from a certain rank onward could simply order and purchase.
You needed to hold a permit or "Verleikhungsurkunde", that was a document signed by Baldur von Schirach, the supreme HJ-leader or "Reichsjugendfuhrer" himself. From 1940 on Artur Axmann held this position, so there must exist "urkundes" with their original signatures on, though I have never seen one of these, not even in a reference book...
I have no idea which were the criteria or which training a Hj-leader had to graduate from, in order to obtain the right to carry the HJ-leader dagger...

This restriction certainly explains why the HJ-leader dagger is so rare compared to other leader daggers, like the SS or NSKK chained daggers.

There is still a lot to be researched about the HJ I suppose...

Best regards,

Herman


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Thank, Herman,

Now we must hunt for a Verleikhungs urkunde. Good luck everyone

Dave

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Thanks Herman,

This is pictured in Tom Johnsons book Dagger of the Trird Reich vol 1

Just about make out a signiture at the bottom, looks to be that of Baldur von Schirach , Reichsjugendführer 1931 -1940

Mark

IMG_6460 (Medium).jpeg (116.62 KB, 112 downloads)

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That was quick - Thank.

And it was on my bookshelf the whole time

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Hoping to get the original colour pic ... from the person who photgraphed it...if he he can find it... wink

Last edited by Stirnpanzer; 08/13/2021 08:17 PM.

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Thank you Mark,

I also must have overlooked that small picture on p 82 of Johnon's first dagger book, which also was my very first reference book ever...

Maybe Weitze might have one of these documents , he often has "urkundes" for sale...

Keep us updated, please, if you find out more about this interesting question.

Best regards,

Herman


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I just found another picture of this urkunde in the latest French reference book by Heimdal.
This is in color, so I suppose this is how it looks.

Best regards,

Herman

Urkunde.jpg (85.42 KB, 88 downloads)

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Believe me, the award document is MUCH more impressive in original than shown in these reference books! It has several pages(!) embossed eagle and much more to see.

Regards,

HJFUrk.JPG (82.82 KB, 143 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Just wonderful, Wotan, to see this original urkunde with the von Schirach signature!

Many thanks for posting it here!

Did the document and the dagger come from the same person?

Best regards,

Herman


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Thanks Wotan,

Thanks for posting that...

I found a pdf online containing @900 HJ / BDM Senior Leaders, with a short profile on each.
It shows the Leader Dagger on the profile (if awarded) , there are 56 listed. But i know this wont be comprehensive.

I have a picture of C.Geelkerken, the Dutch NSB leader wearing one, so looks like they were given to Axis youth leaders.

Mark

Last edited by Stirnpanzer; 08/16/2021 08:28 PM.

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wotan,

Thank you for sharing it. First time seeing one.

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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Did the document and the dagger come from the same person?

Hello, I was told so (the group did come from a collector) but I am always a bit sceptical concerning groups and I have no proof.

This doc is one of the very few award docs for an edged weapon (eg. SSleader´s degens, NPEA daggers, navy shooting price daggers also had award docs) and is therefore interesting for collectors of edged weapons even if they "normally" do not collect paper items.

I am aware of two or three such HJleader dagger docs in reference books but they are all cut down. As you can see the whole document is very large and does not fit into any document wrapper so the other known were -mostly period- cut down. Mine is the only one I know in full, original format.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Well done Wotan! Do you have everything???


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Hello Ron, thank you. I always had a heart for the more uncommon items. But it is clear that I do not come only near to collection like yours.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Great to see an original, Thx for sharing it Wotan, very generous!


Regards
Ger

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Very nice!

Few collectors will reach the level of Ron and Wotan!

PVON


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