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den70 Offline OP
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Gentlemen, I propose to start collecting in one place all the known information about Christmas daggers. I think this exchange of information will be very useful. I propose to collect a base for all types of SA and SS daggers that have signs of early production. Not all of these daggers are dedicated to Roem, but they all have a lot to do with him. In addition to information about the daggers themselves, I think it would also be useful to try to trace their path at least to the veterans who sold them. Indeed, thanks to these people, we can enjoy these rare daggers. Of course, this will not always be possible, but the main thing is to start looking! Any proven provenance gives additional assurance of originality and, in addition to material value, adds history or soul to it.

I would like the owners of these rare daggers to help fill this thread.

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den70 Offline OP
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I did a little dagger qualification.

Type 1.1.

Organization - SA
Manufacturer - Eickhorn.
Motto - Early type.
Eagle - Early type.
Initiation - Yes or remotely.

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Last edited by den70; 05/14/2021 08:34 AM.

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Type 1.2.

Organization - SA or NSKK
Manufacturer - Eickhorn.
Motto - Early type.
Eagle - Standart type.
Dedication is not.

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Last edited by den70; 05/14/2021 08:35 AM.

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Type 2.1.

Organization - SA
Manufacturer - Paсk.
Motto - Early type.
Eagle - Early type.
Initiation - Yes or remotely.

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Last edited by den70; 05/14/2021 08:35 AM.

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Type 3.1.

Organization - SS
Manufacturer -
Motto - Early type.
Eagle - Early type.
Initiation - Yes or remotely.

P.S. From the documents, we know for sure that there were SS daggers with an early eagle. But since there is no general opinion on them among collectors, I only included this type in the qualification without a photo. Since there are separate branches for discussing daggers, I suggest that the clarification of originality should not be outdated here.

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den70 Offline OP
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And since I started this thread, then I will post the information first.

Christmas dagger SA Type 1.1 with full Roem dedication.

Christmas dagger SA. Origin from a veteran family. Bills Joseph serve in Combat infantry, was Radio Sergeant.

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Last edited by den70; 05/14/2021 09:01 AM.

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Small A. Type 1.2 Was buy from MAX 2012.

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Type 2.1 Was buy from LTC Johnson in 2014. Full ground Roem dedication.

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Last edited by den70; 05/14/2021 09:21 AM.

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Hi Den,

Interesting initiative to try making a database on these super rare daggers...

But who will be judging which dagger is original and which is not... and allowing it to enter your database?

As you know, there are very few originals around and plenty of fakes, which are getting better and better, by the way... so a lot of money (and fraud) is involved...

So I doubt if any other owners of known original Christmas daggers will be joining your initiative...



You must get lots of inquiries by fakers, asking for detailed pictures, no?

You got that Eickhorn copper scabbards seriously straightened, as I can see?


Best regards,

Herman


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den70 Offline OP
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Herman, I will express my opinion on the openness of information. I can definitely say that the less information is available, the easier it is for fraudsters to deceive collectors. All the talk that if the information is open, then fraudsters will improve it does not make economic sense. In order to make a dagger correctly, a swindler must know blacksmithing, be able to poison with acid, work with wood or plastic, and also put enamels. Moreover, it is not easy to do this because they have to try to repeat the technologies of those years. After all, if you do not see the blacksmith's stamp on the blade, or the etching will be performed with a "dirty" solution, you will immediately notice it. Of course this makes sense either on very expensive items or in the production of a large series of items. But even then, in my opinion, it is impossible to completely repeat all these nuances. As an example, even high-quality Chinese fakes of branded items have technological differences (seams, threads, materials ...). So this is all the production of the same period, the same technologies and available materials. Not knowing these nuances for customer both Birkin's bag, and its fake will be the same. And the bag is much easier to counterfeit, the technology is simpler. And the bags have much more consumers than all the collectors of Militaria. You remember my threads from 12 years ago about forgeries which you call Eastern Block fakes. So, if I had not looked for information, did not compare different objects with each other and received and did not share information, then I probably would still have these items in my collection and not only me.

In order to make, for example Small A. A fraudster must make a blade with blacksmith's signs for this model, find a handle assembled with a certain GAU, otherwise it will be seen that the tree does not fit the guards. But that's not all, accessories - buttons and an eagle must be of a certain type. And even if all this is somehow found, then there are still the nuances of etching. And in the manufacture of the Christmas dagger, it is even more difficult, since almost all the parts are non-standard. Many of you, just by the appearance of the scabbard, guard or buttons, can tell who the manufacturer is or is the dagger Roem or Himmler.

Therefore, the more you keep secrets and make an elite club, the more there will be fakes and deceived collectors. This is my opinion and maybe not necessarily correct.

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den70 Offline OP
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Now concerning the database. I am not going to judge or declare this or that dagger good or bad. But having collected as much information as possible, this will give more chances to separate the wheat from the chaff. Anyone who wants to spend a couple of days on the Internet will collect all the known daggers. Moreover, this information has already been given by the owners. Why when buying a car you look at its service book, but when buying a rare dagger it is not necessary? As a buyer, I would be interested and given confidence that the history of this dagger can be traced back for a long time. For example, the following people have Eickhorn's daggers.

1. Herman. You yourself have repeatedly posted his photo.
2. RevYJ. Dagger with full Roem. Was discussed by one topic above.
3. Paul, he posted this information here himself.
4. Me. My dagger appeared on the WAF, and many photos were shown by the veteran's grandson to all potential buyers in PM and in topics on the WAF, WRF.
5. Another Eickhorn, which was sold many years ago by Craig. Although I know the new owner, he does not want to advertise himself, but even information from Craig is enough.

Perhaps there are 1-2 more daggers, but their legalization will just be a problem if you collect a high-quality base. Since they are not known in the community, their appearance will be greeted with caution. There is a little more information on other varieties and not every sale resonated with collectors. But it is also available, only it takes more time. So what are we trying to hide? All this information Secret de Polichinelle is an open secret. Therefore, I suggested collecting information in one place, and not discussing subjects and making a verdict on them. You noticed that, for example, on the SS dagger, I wrote about its existence, but did not specify anything. First of all, there are different opinions on it, including you and me. Secondly, although I could use a photo from the topic of discussion, I believe that any potential buyer MUST read well-known topics and draw their own conclusions, and not make a purchase of such a rarity based on my or your opinion. It is necessary to take into account opinions, but he must draw a conclusion on his own. Therefore, a new unknown dagger may turn up, the seller or the customer wants to discuss it, he will create a separate topic. This will judge originality.

P.S. Herman, you were misled by the photo. My dagger has a wrinkled back side of the scabbard, the front side is quite straight. I didn’t do anything with the scabbard, because I think it’s not right to change or improve such a dagger. These dents are his chronicle.

P.P.S. Sorry for long text, and my bad English.

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Hello Den,

Very nice, typical Eickhorn Christmas scabbard!
I must have been confusing yours with the one of another full Röhm Eichorn Christmas dagger, posted here on GDC some 15 years ago. That one was really beat up!

I do understand some of your arguments to make that database, but how would you see that?
The list with Eickhorn Christmas daggers, that you made in the previous post is already very complete. Will more of these be surfacing? Maybe one or two in the coming decades... maybe none...

Making detailed photo's publicly available will not be a good idea, in my opinion, because that is what fakers are looking for. The only reason that all the fakes are still relatively easy to recognize is because, until now, the owners of original daggers were very careful with the distribution of close-up photo's.
Believe me, for the prices that these daggers fetch, a lot of effort will be put in getting the details right. One of the Christmas SS-daggers was already getting very close to the real thing and even fooling some of the dealers, who had seen and handled some originals before...

Best regards,

Herman


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I have a question.
With all the work and money that goes into fake daggers, do we still feel they (the fakers) work off pictures??? And not a real dagger???
I realize that a dagger made off pictures could sell for a couple hundred dollars, but not thousands and fool big dealers.
The fakers of daggers and rings already know almost everything, I would think.
Just my 2 cents, that only worth a penny.
Ed

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This NSKK was on the market for a short while before it was sold at slightly more than $7000.

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Here's a motto picture.

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den70 Offline OP
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I understand your concerns and share them too. Therefore, I am not saying that you need to publish special information here. Although many people already know her. This thread is about general information about these daggers, their history and current owners. Since these items do not have a number or ID, a scammer might say that he is selling your dagger or mine. Therefore, it seems to me that a potential buyer should have a provenance that will be confirmed. This gives you extra confidence. Discussion of old daggers does not make sense, as it already was. And for new daggers, separate discussion threads will be required.

As for the disclosure of information. Let me give you a simple example. The cost of a full SS Roem dagger, is comparable to the cost of a Christmas dagger. Everyone knows the features of SS daggers with Rem's dedication. What should be the tang, guards, button, etc. But I do not see super fakes of these daggers. On the contrary, thanks to the openness of information, fakes are easily identified. Fraudsters cannot completely repeat all the signs.


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Billy is a perfect example. This NSKK is one of two known to me. Its history can be traced back to 2008. It was on sale from Wittmann, Paul, it seems even was in the collection of one of the members of GD. Perhaps more experienced colleagues remember it even earlier. It story will be an added bonus for a new customer.

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Last edited by den70; 05/19/2021 07:00 AM.

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Ed, you're right. The fraudster will not make a copy by the photo, and the explanation on the Internet. Using the photo, you will receive bad copies like Himmler's dagger with the RZM code or TENO by Luneshloss. Fraudsters take a dagger and make their fakes on its basis. The Eastern Bloc forgeries were made from the originals. They are striking in detail and a slight difference in size. But without the original dagger, you cannot repeat all the details from the photo. At the same time, there is no need to discuss, you just need to repeat what is in front of your eyes. But even so, there are technological features (like the size) that are practically impossible to repeat. But to know this, you need to have statistics and exchange information. Otherwise, you can decide that this is an original dagger but of a different production period. Which by the way, many collectors also assumed, until comparative photos were published.

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Den,

The piece I posted above was relevant in that it didn't necessarily appear to have an issue, but we know there are more and better copies all the time.

Here is a picture of the maker mark, which I believe is an obvious way of telling this blade is postwar. Wouldn't you agree?

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Den, do you have pictures of my small A Eickhorn?

I could post some here.

Johnz


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John,

We'd like to see it !

Dave

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Here is my Christmas Dagger: Purchased in the early 1980s, it was vet walk-in at the Kansas City Show and has been in my collection since. As with many of these early Christmas Daggers, it was an NSKK owner painted scabbard when the color transition occurred (I would love to know how many of these Christmas Daggers came to NSKK owners?).

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Originally Posted by Ronald Weinand
Here is my Christmas Dagger: Purchased in the early 1980s, it was vet walk-in at the Kansas City Show and has been in my collection since. As with many of these early Christmas Daggers, it was an NSKK owner painted scabbard when the color transition occurred (I would love to know how many of these Christmas Daggers came to NSKK owners?).

Ron, you have a wonderful dagger. I know only two NSKK pieces. It is Your dagger and anoter, I known it from 2008 year.

rs=w_2560,h_1920,cg_true (4).jpg (78.98 KB, 239 downloads)
rs=w_2560,h_1920,cg_true (7).jpg (63.87 KB, 239 downloads)
rs=w_2560,h_1920,cg_true.jpg (92.5 KB, 239 downloads)
rs=w_2560,h_1920,cg_true (6).jpg (133.1 KB, 239 downloads)

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Have any more of these daggers surfaced in the last couple of years?


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Lately I have seen several fakes of varying quality, including those shown by Tom Wittmann in his video. And one dagger that can most likely be attributed to the originals. The original was shown on the German MFF forum.

https://www.militaria-fundforum.de/forum/index.php?thread/943076-sammlung/&pageNo=4

If the link is contrary to the rules, please remove it. Unfortunately, photos other than previews are not available without full membership. I’m judging by the previews in the topic, so I’m not completely sure. Perhaps the owner of the dagger will want to publish this here, but for now we cannot say anything for sure.


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I'm not seeing any photos at all

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I don't think the owner - juvavum, will be against publishing here previews visible on the MFF forum.

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