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More of frog and knot.

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Hi Andy,

You're right about your sawback being an Eickhorn. The pommel profile as well as the wide crossguard would be clues as well. This looks to be a heavy, solid pommel example which would mean it is probably early manufacture.

In the early 3R, Eickhorn produced sawback fire bayonets for a lot of the smaller cottage industry makers. They will look identical to your sawback but of course have different marks on their ricassos. The early Eickhorn sawbacks were made really well & tend to stand the test of time well.


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Hi Billy, Thanks for your reply and the information you've given it's nice to know that my observations must be getting better, not so long ago all short sawbacks would have looked the same to me but thanks to constantly reading and learning things here I seem to be getting it right. I will study the pommel and crossguard pointers more now. I have an early marked Eickhorn so called pioneer bayonet that is very heavy and beautifully made so see what you mean about their quality of build. Thanks again for your knowledge and observations.
Cheers, Andy.
Originally Posted by Billy G.
Hi Andy,

You're right about your sawback being an Eickhorn. The pommel profile as well as the wide crossguard would be clues as well. This looks to be a heavy, solid pommel example which would mean it is probably early manufacture.

In the early 3R, Eickhorn produced sawback fire bayonets for a lot of the smaller cottage industry makers. They will look identical to your sawback but of course have different marks on their ricassos. The early Eickhorn sawbacks were made really well & tend to stand the test of time well.


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My go to thread on fire bayonets, over 1.1 million views, rarely can I add anything to it so when I saw this piece this morning I knew I could do this thread justice. I knew it was early for this type of bayonet because of the mark, I've had a very similar mark on late Weimar hunting knives but without the solingen underneath so it corresponds exactly with the date in the etch. Magnetic hilt, very heavy, feels great in the hand, a beautiful etch and a bayonet that I am so pleased to own, we have all seen a few fake etched firemans bayonets but I know there is no doubt on this one.

Gary

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Last edited by Baz69; 09/01/2019 12:33 PM.
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Gary that is a stunning piece well done. i've not seen that etch before


Regards Sean
seany #344391 09/01/2019 10:30 PM
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Nice, Gary. I love it.

That is the early Horster mark. I have it on a 2nd Luft, but without the Solingen.

John

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Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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Gary,

A very unique looking fire bayonet you have there, one I have never seen the likes of previously. That doesn't surprise me as some of these rare items were one-off types as I suspect this one might be. You do have an eye for the unusual and rare!

The unusual thing that jumped out at me was the early date, 1931, prior to the 3R & presumably the use of this model sidearm. But we know those dates aren't always concrete since I've got a single oval maker mark Eickhorn fire bayonet which (anecdotally) was used prior to 1933. I previously owned a fire bayonet with this Horster mark and would agree that it's an early variant mark.

The obverse rivets mimic the ones that were on my plain bladed example, how do the reverse rivets look?


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Hi Billy


The rivets look fine to me, theres a small crack to one of the grip plates but thats about all. I've always thought that these were around prior to the 3rd reich period, as you mentioned the single oval Eickhorn mark is testament to that.

Gary

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Gary,

Thanks for the extra pic, doesn't look messed with & the obverse rivet heads resemble the one I owned.

The "potted plant" bookends are most interesting, variations of which I've seen on Herder, Grafath and Klaas examples. I know the chart in Wayne's book shows cross-references between the Klaas Company with Herder and Grafath and the Holler Company with Horster and Herder so I'm presuming that's the explanation for the unusual etch.

The font is also interesting, don't think I've seen it before. Have you shown it to Wayne? Would love to hear his off the cuff thoughts on it.


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Billy

What is interesting to me is that we can now pretty much confirm that these types of bayonets were made pre 3rd Reich and we have conclusively moved the time back to at least 1931, I will have to look in my catalouge collection to see if I can find it in any of my Weimar catalouges.
I don't have much luck with contacting Wayne, twice I have tried and both times he has come back asking for some kind of info which I do not intend to divulge to him or anybody, he's got my email address so that should be enough, to be honest with you I'm sure this piece is OK and like most things I buy I'm comftable with it myself and thats all that matters to me. As this piece is pre 3rd Reich I'm not sure if there are any hard and fast rules regarding these etches, perhaps he would know and he is quite welcome to give his opinion in this thread but even if it were negative I would still know and feel it is good.
The way I always look at any piece is to work out if all the parts and pieces match as they do in this example, the chances of a faker knowing that this particular Horster mark is pre 3rd Reich and then applying an etch to match that mark in time frame is pretty slim, add to that the very reasonable price I paid and it just doesn't make sense to me for it to be a fake etch.



Thank you all very much for your comments.

Gary

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[quote=Billy G.]Besides the relative scarcity of these short sawbacks, what drew me to this particular piece was the unusual hanging device that was on this bayonet. The best I can describe it would be a semi crudely fashioned frog with suspension loop affixed to a clip that was hung from a belt. There also was a strap with snap button to hold the grip of the bayonet in place while in wear.

I loved the piece even more when I found a slight wear mark on the reverse of the pommel where the bayonet obviously rersted against the metal clip while being worn. It gave it just a little more character & also meant the hanging device was original to the bayonet. Volume V of Tom Johnson's original dagger books shows an identical hanging device on a short '33-'34 Eickhorn sawback.

The bakelite grip plates on this piece are the usually seen diamond pattern instead of the earlier, elongated diamond type which we usually see on very early pieces. I'll deal with the earlier bakelite in a later post.
[/quote]

The above quote can be found as post # 15474



The short saw-back in Johnson VOL 5 was mine. And boy I miss it. It was bought at a small gun-show in MN. about 1982
Regards: James
PS this style of bayonet came out in the mid to late 20s.. (Period documents)

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Baz69 #344427 09/05/2019 04:18 PM
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Gary,

I absolutely agree with you, this bayonet has a lot going for it in terms of circumstantial evidence and the fact you acquired it reasonably only adds to that. It is a bayonet I would like to have in my collection as well.

Regarding Wayne, I was curious about his thoughts only to the extent of what he thought about the specific font, considering his experience in the scope of etched bayonets.

The concept that these bayonets have been around prior to the inception of the 3R is certainly something I've thought about many times, simply based on maker marks, early bakelite patterns, hilt configurations and anecdotal facts like the date on your bayonet. It's always satisfying to delve into things this deeply.

Thanks for sharing!

[quote=Baz69]Billy

What is interesting to me is that we can now pretty much confirm that these types of bayonets were made pre 3rd Reich and we have conclusively moved the time back to at least 1931, I will have to look in my catalouge collection to see if I can find it in any of my Weimar catalouges.
I don't have much luck with contacting Wayne, twice I have tried and both times he has come back asking for some kind of info which I do not intend to divulge to him or anybody, he's got my email address so that should be enough, to be honest with you I'm sure this piece is OK and like most things I buy I'm comftable with it myself and thats all that matters to me. As this piece is pre 3rd Reich I'm not sure if there are any hard and fast rules regarding these etches, perhaps he would know and he is quite welcome to give his opinion in this thread but even if it were negative I would still know and feel it is good.
The way I always look at any piece is to work out if all the parts and pieces match as they do in this example, the chances of a faker knowing that this particular Horster mark is pre 3rd Reich and then applying an etch to match that mark in time frame is pretty slim, add to that the very reasonable price I paid and it just doesn't make sense to me for it to be a fake etch.



Thank you all very much for your comments.

Gary[/quote]


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James
If anybody was going to have period documentation regarding the first use of this type of bayonet it would be you, can you tell us what type of documents you have regarding this issue whether it be written or pictorial in a catalouge for example and if so which makers catalouge.

Billy
thanks for your thoughts

Gary

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Wow Gary, that etch looks great .

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Hello all,

I recently picked up some nice daggers and bayonets from a WW2 vet's son, one of which is this fireman's bayonet. Its sawback teeth go in the opposite direction and I'd like ideas as to rarity, value and significance. It is unmarked and the left grip plate has a crack, but otherwise a really nice piece. All items were in a box that hadn't been opened in 70 years.Thanks a lot--

Gene

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