UBB.threads Forums General Interest Community Center Restated rule for the "For Sale" Forum

International scams are in a different category, due to different jurisdictions. A scammer who defrauds folks in the US, for example, from another country can be charged here, but lots of luck on that, unless there are very big bucks involved. Even if he is charged here, extradition to the US becomes an issue. Extradiction agreements are usually by treaty and can vary widely from country to country as to what offenses are extraditable. The US has to foot the bill to bring crooks back here. Most countries don't seem to give a hoot if someone in the US was ripped off. Generally, Canada and US law enforcement authorities maintain an excellent working relationship because of being adjacent to one another, shared heritage, language, etc., and it is to their mutual benefit to cooperate. We were fortunate to connect with a detective who was dedicated and aggressive in pursuing our matter. In any case, maintaining emails and ads, along with proof of payment, is about all you have if you get hit by a thief. They should be saved until the transaction is closed and you are satisfied. This applies to domestic and foreign transactions. Getting action on a domestic fraud can be difficult. The same old warnings about buying are sound and will continue to be so. If you are "hit," it pays to take immediate and assertive action. Make copies of what you have, write a narrative of what took place and connect with a law enforcement agency. Phone calls are best unless you can personally visit. Be persistent, but polite. If the scammer is overseas, you might try your country's embassy or consulate in that country for assistance. It will be an uphill battle and the best you can usually hope for is the foreign officials "will make a record of it."

Dave:
As you will note I essentially agreed with your post above. I was just trying to point out that there's limitations. It behooves us all to remain ever vigilant and to try and warn fellow collectors of possible problems.
Jim

While we spend a lot of time worrying about buyers, let's not forget that there are many sellers out there who are scammers as well. Big names all the way to no names.

How do these rules protect the buyers? Expulsion from GDC may not be a big enough stick.

It seems that the person with the money has all the power in the relationship between buyer and seller.

John

Jim,
Exactly. No disagreement at all. That is why some sellers have asked if they can limit sales to their own countries.

Grumpy
Correct. And when some "Nazi" is involved, I'll bet it would make it harder/

John,
The right of unquestioned return is to protect the buyer. So are the rules requiring pictures and requiring the seller to say what is included in the price such as shipping / tracking, etc.

And, yes, there have been dodgy sellers. My after watching the forum for some time, I thin I have seen (or had reported) my problem buyers than sellers. And you are correct that the one with the $$ has the power, but today all over the world, the way it generally works is you pay your money then get your goods.

Sanctions ? I write rules that can be enforced. Expulsion from GDC is about as big a stick as I have. Beyond that, it is for the police, customs, postal inspectors, etc.

If you can suggest wording for additional rules, please do.

Dave

Dave:

My note was just in response to the desired watering down of the right of return option. Whatever we come up with has to balance the rights and responsibilities of both the buyer and the seller. And, above else, to make the exchanges work smoothly and friction free.

John

Any more comments ?

I understand the concerns about buyers remorse and the 5 day no fault return policy. If anyone cares to craft a proposed rule about this or anything else, and post it here for comment, then please do, otherwise these will be permanent

Dave

Dave, I crafted a proposed rule about returns on page 1, and got 0 comments on it, so I assume it was rejected out of hand.
Would be kinda nice though to know why it was rejected.

Realistically, it would be difficult to include a "buyer's remorse" provision, although such is reprehensible in my book. There are undoubtedly very rare instances when there are truly hardship reasons for non-payment. I emphasize the "very rare." I have no problems with a true hardship or returns. But, you can have a non-payer who will conveniently claim an exception to any rule by saying "Aunt Gertrude" died and he had to pay for the funeral. How can you refute such? I would suggest posting the names of non-payers and getting both sides of the story. I would also suggest that any member posting something for sale can refuse to sell to anyone, if he chooses, without cause.

There is obviously no way to make someone pay.
If they don't want to pay, thats it - And the most that can be done is a suspension from the forum.

I feel we are dealing with principles here, and to give potential shirkers carte blanche authority, in advance, to back out on a deal by saying "you don't need any reason to return anything to anyone - You want a refund, you get it, period!" I feel is not very principled, or vested with the responsibility one would expect from deals between grown men.

Doug,

If you mean ""Returns - Buyers have a 7 day period in which to return an item significantly not as described, damaged in transit, or where there are questions of authenticity."

I thought I addressed the "Significantly not as described" issue. That is not an enforceable rule in my opinion as it gives all the discretion to the seller and simply sets up the whole issue for a prolonged fight and ill will all around.

As to 7 days, I left it at 5 days after receipt of the item which should be enough for anyone.

Grump

You are correct and I have stated that several times. I will add that in to # 6 or #7. Check in a few minutes

Dave

All righty.
I don't agree that "not as described" is an impossible issue to resolve, in fact it would be easy ,,, But you have the last word, and I accept that buyers are not bound to honor their commitments if they chose not to.

Yes, buyers and sellers are bound to honor their commitments. Don't forget that both have the ability to contact Vern or I or post their concerns on GDC.

Dave

Dave, not trying to be argumentative here ,, But the buyer is bound to nothing if they can demand a refund on any whim, which was the point of some around here wanting to see the rule modified to a reasonable standard of responsibility.
A private sale like this, buyers should not be entitled to a refund unless there is a very good reason, you say that its impossible to define & enforce "good reason", so thats that.