UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Miniature SS Dagger.

A friend of mine has this miniature SS Dagger. I do not know if it is original or not. Here is a photo of the front.

One curios item is where the blade fits into the grip. It is like a large whole was drilled into the grip and the blade packed in with some type of filler. Here is a photo where I try to show this. a

Here is the pommel nut.

RZM Marked

Can you tell me if this is original or if you need more photos. Tahnk you

Jim

IMO these are strictly fake. Very poor quality. Many were brought in by Atwood & Co. in the 60's. I doubt the RZM would approve of any miniature-as they are unofficial.

While I will most often differ to Houston's impressive credentials, recognition and knowledge in this hobby, the issue of the "807/36' is not definitively resolved. There are a number in the hobby who believe that these are "period," including Thomas Wittmann who acknowledges them on page 667 of his work "Exploring the Dress Daggers and Swords of the German SS." As Wittmann states "these period originals were made without scabbard. . . all-aluminum casting etc. etc." Now while I will concede that it is possible that such acclaimed authors as T. Wittmann may make a mistake in their references, with how many also a point of debate, my point is only that, for some, the jury is obviously still out on these pieces. ~ Ian

Further thoughts . . . http://www.ssocr.com/collectibles/edged_weapons.htm

Thanks Houston and Bushido.

So, as my wife is interested in this, original or not, can I get a feal for what these are going for these days?

Thank you

Jim

So, perhaps a lttle better explanation.

I go with Houston on this that they are probably Atwood fantasy daggers. Nothing against the opinions of some of the other leaders in the hobby, I am just conservative that way.

However, my wife likes this, my friend has this, and I must determine what price is fair for one of these so I can have peace in my home.

So, please throw out any ideas on value you might have.

About 15 years ago, an antique dealer in Cleveland, Ohio, brought these two daggers down to East Tennessee to an antique dealer here, where he left them to be traded for "black memorbelia", which is very scarce in this part of the South. For several months he wouldn't talk about a cash offer.
The chained SS dagger was in pretty rough condition but original I believed. Finally one day I got his telephone number from the dealer here with whom I had dealt before. I called and made him an offer on both daggers, but actually only offering what I thought the chained dagger was worth, as I could tell the minature was a "homebrew job" but pretty nice with a Damascus blade. The small scabbard was a work of art, as I know it was difficult to make. We finally reached a deal and I bought both daggers. I sold the chained SS several years ago at one of the SOS shows. I have always kept the minature as a curiousity. Here are the two together.

Scabbards

Hi Jim--I hate these but because they appear in the book you could probably get $150 for it with no trouble. Hope that helps. See you at the SOS.

Thanks Houston.

Don, you should post more photos of the dagger. It could be one off.

Jim

Jim, here are a couple more shots of the minature dagger and scabbard. I am not a photographer. The dagger is 7 inches long, and all parts appear homemade, The grip is a nice piece of wood and the blade is Damascus, but there is no motto.
Don

Reverse

I, like Houston believe these to be post war production items. They are very crude compared to what was produced by Alcoso, SFM etc. Additionally, they have metal as opposed to wood grips, do not disassemble, and are absent of scabbards; all of which raises red flags. Don's example is far from crude, but is off proportionally, and if made in the 40's I suspect was a personal side project of a cutlery worker. Although a fair question is, why of all the organizations didn't the SS contact for miniatures or why some industrious manufacture didn't produces them on his own; I think if they had, we would have seen examples of a much higher quality. I think a follow-on fair question would be�.Would the SS be satisfied and proud of such miniature daggers, to use them as gifts or awards on their behalf? I think not.

Below is my response to a question regarding the Goring wedding sword miniature, which has a few thoughts relative to this thread.

Posted 27 January 2006 17:34


Back in 1987 when Gailen and I wrote the chapter on miniatures for Skipper Greenwade�s book Me Fecit Solingen, a photograph of a miniature Goring Wedding Sword was included (page 239). I don�t remember now whether the photo was provided by the owner (Mr., Flood) or by a third party, but it was included along with the description as received. In retrospect, its inclusion appears questionable at best, but not to own up to this mistake would be inexcusable. Bottom line, now being older and hopefully wiser, I too, in the absence of further evidence must conclude that the Goring Wedding Sword although a miniature dagger, was doubtfully produced during the Third Reich. Uncertainties have also arisen on miniature SA and SS examples, over which arguments from major dealers persist from both camps (pro and con). Not unlike the legitimacy of the miniature 1935 Railway dagger, one needs ultimately to decide for himself what he�s comfortable with, all rhetoric aside. I continue to see many other varies models purported to be period manufactured miniatures, none of which can be documented. Bottom line, beware, be cautious and be inquisitive; as just because something appears in a book on the internet �doesn�t make it right�. Truth has a strange way of evolving.

Andy

Hi Andy,
I enjoyed your comments about the minature daggers. My example does disassemble just like the full size originals. Like you, I have always thought that it was homemade by some cutlery worker. The Damascus is a beautiful piece of steel probably cut down from something else, perhaps broken.
The "story" given to me by the Ohio antique dealer was, that he had once been a house painting contracter. He said he was supervising a crew painting the house of a retired colonel in northern Ohio. As they were talking in the yard the conversation turned to German WWII relics. He stated that the old gentleman went into the house and came out with the two daggers, the chained SS and the minature. He ended up buying both of them giving a credit to the colonel on the house painting job.
He only remembered that the veteran told him that he "got them both together" during the war.
As a long time collector of Gestapo warrant discs, I fully realize that many stories have no basis in reality, but this one sounded pretty good. In any case, I have always liked the little dagger for whatever it is. Hope to see you at the SOS.
Don Bible

about ten years ago here in uk i missed buying a miniature of the Goring Wedding Sword ,which i spotted at arms fair in north uk . it was a gorgeous little piece i wanted for my office desk,when i went back it was gone. thing is it was made in the UK ,cant remember which maker,it wasnt a modern cheap bendy one but really good ,and i thought afterwards that whoever bought it may try and remove the maker mark and sell as original.
i wonder if this has been done on others as the manufacturer must have made a few,yet only ever seen the one myself.