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#342034 03/26/2019 02:29 PM
Joined: Dec 1999
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It has been suggested recently that gold Hitler Youth Leaders are NOT "Marine" versions, but were instead worn by High Leaders of the HJ. While this may be true, this particular piece was acquired by the owner in Baden Baden directly from the family of the German veteran, who WAS an instructor in the Marine HJ cadre.

marine1.jpg (42.18 KB, 312 downloads)
marine2.jpg (25.38 KB, 309 downloads)
marine3.jpg (46.98 KB, 307 downloads)
marine4.jpg (49.02 KB, 309 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
Founder, German Daggers Dot Com
www.cgmauctions.com
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Hello Craig! The "golden" ones always have been attributed to MarineHY. Until recently (I assume one or two years ago, perhaps a little longer,as the certain dagger remains unsold until now) on a german site these golden ones have been attributed to HYhighleaders without further exlanation. BTW at the same site the golden RMBOdaggers are attributed as high rank gov daggers.....
YES shiny GOLD always has to be attributed to high leaders grin grin grin

I have seen and handled several of these golden HYLleader ones, up to now I have not seen any which COULD be the real thing and period.

I am sure you are aware of the "normal" HYknives with special badges which have been attributed to MarineHY but are nothing more than phantasy pieces.

Unfortunately the dagger you show has also certain details which are typical (and for me personally 100%) and known signs for a postwar fake. Sorry, I do not buy the story but look at an item carefully.

I also know the story -I think TMJohnson has written about it- that there has been found such a golden HYleader after the war. I personally tend to think that, due to the special kind of manufacturing (different materials like steel and aluminium needed a homogene finish) the after the war found dagger was a half finished piece (or perhaps a gift) but I have no proof for this.
I personally do not believe in this MarineHY attribution.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Here is a pre WWII Swedish AF dagger. The post WWII has a center fitting. Note the grip and crossguard are pretty much identical to the golden HJ Leaders that started showing up after the war.

73 Swedish AF (1).JPG (33.86 KB, 252 downloads)
73 Swedish AF (2).JPG (27.11 KB, 252 downloads)
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Craig, could you show close pictures trademark and eagle? Thanks.


Buy Casberg sketches.
den70 #342075 03/30/2019 08:17 PM
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I am also no fan of those so called "golden HJ-leaders"...

One is brought to the Kassel show for many years now... by one of the famous dealers of Europe.

When you put this piece next to a classic HJ-leader by E&F H?rster... you immediately can see plenty of red flags...


Thanks for posting this Swedish dagger, Jim!

This might be a source of some parts...

Best regards,

Herman


"Het leven is een strijdtoneel!"
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Unfortunatly I havn't info about period HY Leader Marine dagger. But my opinions, shown dagger is fake. I found closer pictures. We can see It well known so-called Eastern block fake.

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/~germand2/ubbthreads.php/topics/258584/hy-leader-opinions.html#Post258584

The TM and eagle totaly identical with fake dagger.

2w2 _1.jpg (93.75 KB, 183 downloads)
Last edited by den70; 04/01/2019 07:32 AM.

Buy Casberg sketches.
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Hello den70, there are several (more) minute differences beside an original HYleader dagger and those fakes. For the luck of us collectors. I personally would not go into details because unfortunately we had to get to know that the fakers also do learn from our collector forums to improve their fakes. The best to learn the differences is to be in contact with experienced collectors, to attend shows and last but not least look nto reference books and forums (when obvious originals are shown) and learn how originals look like.

Jim W, I did know those swedish pre WWII daggers but do not know are they makermarked??? There is obviously without any doubt a connex between them and the HYlader daggers per se, not only the golden ones.

It is sad, that CG, who has opened the thread, does not respond in an appropriate time window. As he has handled a lot of daggers he should know how originals do look like.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Wotan, I am indicate very flash red flags. You totally correct, they more than two. Very pity the two big dealers not saw it. If you ask big money, you must be very neat with goods. It your name, reputation and thrust clients.

The Sweden Royal Air force dagger was introduced in 1930 or 1932, I don't remember now. I ask Sweden colleguas about autor, or other info, but they didn't have it. Very interesting why Solingen producers and NJ headquarters, accept foreign design. Maybe it was Eickhorn or Horster home design.


Buy Casberg sketches.
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Very interesting the Sweden dagger being so similar.
Could be Craig was trying to get things moving here, has been slow as of late.
Ed

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The Swedish dagger I show is a model 1930, made by a Eric Gumaelius in Sweden., 7 years before the Hitler Youth Leaders dagger. I understand there were Solingen manufacturers and I know the post war 1952 Model was produced primarily by WKC. Most collectors I know accept that the Hitler Youth Leader originals were patterned after the Swedish. It is also almost impossible to find any of the original 1930 Swedish. I long suspected they have been turned into the gold leaders dagger. But, a lot of speculation.

Jim W #342107 04/02/2019 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim W
The Swedish dagger I show is a model 1930, made by a Eric Gumaelius in Sweden., 7 years before the Hitler Youth Leaders dagger. I understand there were Solingen manufacturers and I know the post war 1952 Model was produced primarily by WKC. Most collectors I know accept that the Hitler Youth Leader originals were patterned after the Swedish. It is also almost impossible to find any of the original 1930 Swedish. I long suspected they have been turned into the gold leaders dagger. But, a lot of speculation.


Jim W could you give more info about Sweden dagger and how it was creations.

I think rework HJ dagger from Sweden Air force not good idea. A lot of parts need reworks. All fitings must be remade, blades hase different shape. Pommel, scabbard tip and throat not only other shapes and relief with other figures.


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Nice photos. I do not believe it is that difficult to take the Spanish 1960's reproduction. Remove the fittings, gold plate them, and mount them on the Swedish. That would include the maker marked blade. But if nothing else, the grip parts of the same era are around.

den70 #342116 04/03/2019 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by den70
Very pity the two big dealers not saw it. If you ask big money, you must be very neat with goods. It your name, reputation and thrust clients.


den70, whenever money is in the play most dealers, even very big ones, don t care for originality and reputation (which again most of them don t have). I do remember very well the sale of one of the best known HYleader -fakes- (the spanish ones, those with the prominent bulge on the pommel) by one of the Big ones without any eye s twitching.

Nevertheless, an interesting discussion here as we learn that we do know very few about the true origin of the HYleader design and it s connex to the swedish air force dagger. The swedish model has some points I think to find again especially in the EICKHORN variant so your (den70) idea of an original EICKHORN design could make sense.

JimW and den70 also thank you for the ostensive pics!

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #342180 04/06/2019 08:15 PM
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There were several items I wass thinking about bidding on for myself but.... Since Craig did not respond or remove the dagger I am afraid to take anything that takes a "hands on" to be safe. Maybe he did not see this thread?
Bob

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Oh, I see the certain dagger has been in CG Auction with a starting bid for 3495$ and sold for 7600$ (+ is there any provision?) today...................................

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.

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