UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Edged Weapons Accoutrements Forum Police Bayonet/Sword Portepee

Hello,

I recently acquired this bayonet knot which I believe to be for the police bayonet or sword. This one, however, appears a little different as the stripes on the lower part of the ball are a light yellowish/green rather than the darker green you usually see. Anyone have an idea if this is a different type of police knot or what type of knot it is? The upper part of the portepee ball seems to have the usual shade of green.

Thanks,

Fitzer

Fitzer,

I've seen this before & posted such things too. George Wheeler believed that it's merely fading of the green in the stripes. I find it interesting that only certain portions of the green faded but it is not an unknown occurrence.

Is this the knot with the split strap?

Hi Billy yes it is, I picked it up more for the color oddity, Seems too uniform to just be fading and why did the other sections of green not fade?
Cheers

Maybe George will chime in here to explain it better. I believe the theory is some dyes were susceptible to lightening & some weren't, which explains why portions of the cords are uniformly lightened. The uniformity rules out oxidation by UV light. I've seen the effect previously on occasion & always found it both interesting & desirable.

Glad I have one in my collection. Has it been ruled out there may be variations in knots due to rank/depts. etc. ?

Here's another one of these knots: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-ww2-german-police-sword-33416773
Whats interesting is that the strap (like the one I show above) is made of a rubber type material, not the usual leather or fabric.

I believe leather straps were early with fabric coming later. I haven't handled a rubber-type one yet but I'd assume they're late war production.

Fitzer, your portepee is either for the NCO bayonet or sword, but not both. The NCO knot for sword was significantly larger in size than that for the police bayonet. Likewise, the size difference was carried over to the officer knots for bayonet and sword in which the knots lacked the green stripping. I can't remember if I discussed these in my chapter on Police Sidearms in Johnson Vol IV. I don't think I wrote about it in the chapter I wrote in Wittmann's book.

And I agree with George that the difference in green color stripes was due to dye failure. It definitely was not related to rank/depts. as you suggested.

Thanks Joe, appreciate the information. It may be that the dye in later examples lacked the quality of earlier versions and was subject to fading. Cheers

Here is a size comparison of two sword knots (Officer & NCO) to a NCO bayonet knot. Never seen a lighter green version and now I need to get one.

Thanks Riiterkreuz.

The lighter green version matches the size of the other police bayonet knots (officer and NCO) in my collection and is definitely not a sword knot. IMO I think this a different type of (unidentified) police knot, I am not convinced that a different type of dye was used on the lower part of the knot that somehow fades while the top part stays the darker green. The color distinction is too uniform as well plus the fabric on this knot is a stiff rubber much different from the softer cloth-like fabric on my other Officer and NCO knots, There are other examples out there but tough to find. Here is another: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-ww2-german-police-sword-33416773

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Unless I indicate otherwise, I only give information that is fact, supported by period sources from 1936 to 1945 such as the Ministerial Blatter, Polizei Kalendars or Leitfadens I have assembled in my library over the past forty years. The only color mentioned on the knots for the police is green. I would read with interest any discovery you might make.

That's what makes this hobby so interesting, there is always something new and different to be discussed. I will certainly let you know if I discover anything else regarding these types of knots

Hi guys, just revisiting this thread as I came across some evidence to suggest that the lighter green piping on the bayonet ball may indeed be due to fading as shown in the below pic:
I believe these are later war as the strap looks to be made of a cheaper rubberish material (like the one I own) and the green dye perhaps of lesser quality and prone to fading

I agree that this color change is due to unstable dye and fading. As to the strap material one will find cloth, leather, cardboard, and plastic strap material in my experience. There is a lot of leeway to be found on private purchase knots of all types: Portepee, Faustriemen, & Troddel.

Great info Orpo. Thank you!. I guess there aren't many remaining examples of the cardboard variety