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#339240 08/01/2018 06:02 AM
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Wim Offline OP
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Hi everyone,

can i please have some opinions on the following dagger tags. I never heard of fakes but it is better to be sure. They come from an older advanced collection.


Many thanks in advance

295aa.jpg (23.7 KB, 190 downloads)
295bb.jpg (23.76 KB, 191 downloads)
IMG_0903.jpg (45.03 KB, 190 downloads)
IMG_0904.jpg (41.68 KB, 188 downloads)
Wim #339242 08/01/2018 03:14 PM
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From the photos, it look good.

Dave

Dave #339243 08/01/2018 05:09 PM
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Wim Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Dave
From the photos, it look good.

Dave



Thank you Dave. My next question is: exist there any fake Eickhorn tag? All the examples that I have seen are carbon copies of each other so I wonder if fakers went through the troubles to make look-alike pieces?


Regards, Wim

Wim #339248 08/01/2018 06:35 PM
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I'm not sure if they make the body of the tag but they definately make the paper insert. I think your Tag is fine.

Gary

Baz69 #339249 08/01/2018 06:38 PM
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Wim Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Baz69
I'm not sure if they make the body of the tag but they definately make the paper insert. I think your Tag is fine.

Gary



Hi Gary,

Yes I heard of that rumor that they tried to make the paper insert. Probably to touch up pieces with lost paper?

Wim #339253 08/01/2018 10:21 PM
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I have not seen fake ones, but if anything, the paper would be the part reproduced. I have seen many real tags with the paper missing. Yours looks good.

Dave

Dave #339256 08/02/2018 04:43 AM
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1st tag pictured Has paper problems.. Closeups of that tag like the other would be nice..
Regards:

Last edited by DAMAST; 08/02/2018 04:48 AM.
DAMAST #339257 08/02/2018 09:38 AM
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Wim Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DAMAST
1st tag pictured Has paper problems.. Closeups of that tag like the other would be nice..
Regards:


Maybe I can check it under a microscope .New printing must be visible then.

Last edited by Wim; 08/02/2018 09:39 AM.
Wim #339261 08/02/2018 05:19 PM
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Here are close-ups from the first (minty) tag.

IMG_0905.jpg (73.91 KB, 133 downloads)
IMG_0906.jpg (61.44 KB, 133 downloads)
Wim #339263 08/02/2018 05:29 PM
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Microscopic pictures of the first stroke of the quotation mark in the word "Eickhorn" First picture worn Tag, second picture minty tag. The structure of the paper and the printing work looks the same IMO? There are only variations in the design when extremely magnified. Look at the 3th and 4th picture from the squirrel eye for example...

Tag-1b.jpg (92.33 KB, 134 downloads)
Tag-2b.jpg (72.5 KB, 133 downloads)
Tag-1c.jpg (52.67 KB, 131 downloads)
Tag-2c.jpg (64.36 KB, 131 downloads)
Wim #339373 08/08/2018 10:41 AM
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Hello, there is at least one issue when I look at the second tag see the pics.
All original period EICKHORN tags I have seen (and I own some) have the all black background. I am not aware of a variant with partially bright background.
Generally you can judge such an insert only by taking it (carefully) out of the tag and look with a loupe for copy points (printing does not have such points).
Regards,

EICKHOR TAG.JPG (49.14 KB, 124 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #339418 08/11/2018 05:25 PM
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Dear Wotan,

Thanks for your input. I'm writing an article for the IMC magazine at the moment about metal dagger tags so it is important that I do it right. Monday I can borrow two extra Eickhorn tags for examination. But do you agree that based on the microscopic pictures of the eye of the squirrel on the paper insert, the texture of the paper and the printing method looks pretty much the same? And with this kind of magnification, I assume you must see the dot pattern from a computer printed paper, which is not the case here. Plus if they want to make a perfect copy, they need to find paper material with the same texture, no?

I'm scared to dead to remove the paper insert from the metal disk. I do have a picture from the unfolded paper insert that is send to me by a friendly Skipper Greenwade.


Some advanced collectors said to me that the metal disk is not copied for the moment. Is it safe to assume that statement? Is it safe to assume that ,albeit a very simple object, this tag is not so easy to copy in a perfect way without special machinery? A combat award can simply be cast in a mold, taken from the original but with this tags the situation is bit different.

Wim #339435 08/12/2018 11:55 AM
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Hello Wim, please apologize when I say that I personally cannot see much in these heavy enlarged pics (it?s the same in the prominent hr thread...). And I never would recommend to open such a tag to remove the paper insert for examination. It is easy for a collection, when you have such a tag and you are happy with it simply let it be that way.
You say that you are writing an article ant I think this is another level, nearly a forensic level and as you state yourself you want to do it right.
It is a very delicate thing to disassamble such a tag. And a broken tag is a loss from about 400-600 USD... If you have no good feeling perhaps you have somebody around you who has already done it successfully and has the feeling where to assess and where not.

There are several, easy ways to get the proper or approximately proper paper which I don?t want to reveal as fakers are reading even here.

Yes, I know that Skipper Greenwade has the paper insert shown in Me Fecit Solingen, but a pic from the insert is the same as any copy. It is just important to see what the insert looks like for anyone who has not seen such an insert unfolded.

When you examine such a paper tag (unfolded, what you should do when writing a serious article) you should have a doubtless original one and do 1.) a photocopy and 2.) a pc print copy. Not till then you can compare these three, also in large magnification. So you can come to clear, serious results.
Such an article always has also the danger that fakers get knowledge they normally do not get...

I also do not believe that the metal tag is faked for the moment. It?s special structure is not easy to fake, there are several steps to manufacture such a tag perfectly. But on the other hand in many countries work is cheap and there are also old manufacturing methods used so what do we know for sure? When I look at a lot of tags I think to see some minute differences. Could be manufacturing differences (these tags were at least made during several years), but we have to stay careful and suspicious. The "spidering" of the lacquering on your tags is always a very good sign (like on SA dagger scabbards) for originality.

All the best for your work, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Wim #339436 08/12/2018 02:42 PM
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Thanks for the information Wotan. Much appreciated. smile


Regards, Wim

Wim #339487 08/15/2018 04:18 PM
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Hi, ok... here a compilation of four paper inserts from Eickhorn Tags. Number 1. Has a clear dot in the eye and a much fatter lettering. Where the paper goes inside the metal, it is cream colored instead of black. The number 2 is different in design with skinny lettering and a paper insert that keeps black over its entire lengt Number 3 shows a paper insert that keeps black where it goes into the metal tag, lettering is skinny. Note that the tail of the squirrel is varying in all examples with his distance to the back of the squirrel. Number 4 has a paper insert that becomes cream colored were it goes into the metal tag and the lettering is again skinny.


Is it possible that some collectors who own Eickhorn tags can check these variations and share them? Once the must have made many then thousands of these things so small differences must have been normal during all those production years? Personally I don't believe that it easy to copy the Eickhorn factory issue tag. They must make carbon copies, both of the metal tag and the paper insert of the original if they make an attempt to do so.



compilation.jpg (132.2 KB, 67 downloads)
Last edited by Wim; 08/15/2018 04:19 PM.

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