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Hi guys, here something I think we all could find interesting.

Some time ago I did a thread about the analysys of the SS-Totenkopfring:
TK ring microanalysys

Now, after some more months, I have to say that I must change some parts of that research since I checked better the rings and I found they were not die struck, but cast.
At the beginning I focused mainly on some sharp details, but after checking the whole ring signs are unquestionable. Sharps details in the recesses of the ring are found only when there were an hand finish. All the areas that in a die struck piece should be sharp and smooth, in TK rings are not.

I think pictures will explain much more better than words what I mean.

And considering they were cast, not it is possible to explain why there are sometimes air bubbles on the band, and why the eyes sockets of the skull show often peeling.
In this case the circle is closed and all perfectly matches.

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Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 04/23/2018 12:09 PM.
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does' this mean that everything we have been told about these things is wrong?

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Antonio,,, Interesting... Well I'm not a big follower of these rings. BUT. I'll give some common sense evidence..
1st, not sure if published but Don has said many years ago the skulls were cast,,then later soldered on the ring..

OK my understanding of 'Lost Wax', 'Investment Casting' etc. could be pressure induced or done centrifugal or simple pour..
I had a couple ideas about how the ring was made but no one seemed to interested at the time years ago when I mentioned the process.. BUT, lets stay with cast VS pressed.

So years ago when everyone was debating about this I had my friend bring authentic HR to NYCs diamond district. A famous area for more than 100 years where the Jewelers run the block and plenty of deals made! I showed an old timer [who has since passed on] who was alive during WW2 and has been in the jewelry business more than 50 years at the time. I showed him a 2nd pattern [late] HR.
He look at it for a minuet and asked,,,'How many were made? or is this it?' At the time I think I gave him a very brief history of the ring, and so many made each years etc. etc. His finding to me were:

Is this a perfect ring? My answer is no,it has defects etc. He picked up a ring from his shelf and said , 'is this a perfect ring?' My answer was,,yes. It was a beauty of a ring and flawless. He was really surprised when I told him how important the ring was that it continued to have the faults. He said its because they stayed with how that die was cut.

He said thats because the base of casting jewelry is wax. Hard waxes, soft waxes, etc. When a ring is carved from wax every imperfection will come out on the finished ring. Same with a ring made from a die.. The big difference is,,,
- with a die you have one. That one makes working dies and all the rings will be the same. All have the same faults, imperfections etc.

With a cast ring it too will come out with all the faults. But only a few. By the next batch that big die flaw on the Sieg rune would not be there. Same as with any other flaw.. With a die your stuck with it. The working die breaks or wears and another is made from the 'Mother die' and again you will have all the same faults..

Unless Firma Gahr made all their rings from one big day of casting the flaws, faults wouldn't be there period. We know he didn't make them all at one time..

With any cast ring then , now , whenever, It would be only the first run that would have the faults. AND even then it would be because of lazyness. I say that because when the wax model comes out a flaw could be fixed in a few seconds and then wax soldered to its tree for the burnout. That means every ring would have to be touched. Too much time,,SO they just wait to the next batch and then its repaired...

What I'm saying is and all this boils down to IF cast,,,we would only see the flaws/faults in the first batch. A flaw in a 1941 isn't going to be in the 42,43,44 rings.

Maybe Hapur will see this and weigh in,,,or we'll get some other opinions.. I have a theory but its only a theory,,we'll wait a bit and then I'll explain.., Thanks,G.

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Originally Posted by polop
does' this mean that everything we have been told about these things is wrong?

I believe the answer is yes.
Look for example this ring with totally erased inside engraving: a clear air bubble is visible in the band.



Gaspare, I can confirm the fact that almost each ring, was finished by hands. Especially the '30 style rings.

Furthermore on the top of the ring there are some recesses areas that are orizzontal, and there's no way to do them with a die struck process.
I spent hours trying to understand, but there's no other possibilities IMO.
Private purchased rings, skull rings for example, are much more better in details, and they don't show all the casting signs that are visible in TK rings.

Look at the attached pictures, the second shows recesses on the thickness of the ring.

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z45.jpg (50.33 KB, 382 downloads)
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thats because private purchase rings are die pressed. I own a few period working dies. Have seen many others..

IF the HR was cast why does the big 'die flaw' remain on the Sig runen? Why wouldn't it be quickly repaired in the next batch of cast rings... We are missing something all of us.


Have you heard of a 'Pressed Penny'? It is a tourist type of trinket... Anyone here hear of them or have had one?

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this for me stops it being a cast ring,,or 'fully' cast ring..... IF, if this was a full cast ring this 'flaw.fault would only appear on the first year of the 2nd pattern rings. ALL rings afterward [41,42,43,44] would have been repaired,,no flaw.

I believed we've always been missing something about the HR..

So my question still stands.. Does anyone know or have a pressed penny trinket?

zzzzzjp.JPG (47.84 KB, 370 downloads)
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One pressed penny coming right up!

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Mike,,thanks so much! Whats really cool is usually the workings with the die is exposed and you can see how this happens.. Could it be some sort of design matrix is what makes the HR?!?.
It would come out semi circular. The engraving could be done,,closed and skull soldered on and a bit of hand finishing.

All methods need to be discussed. Simply saying they are cast isn't good enough. And until some one can explain why the 'die flaw' is on all year HRs we have still have a manufacture problem,,,as in How they are exactly made!....

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this simple old device makes 4 different designs.. Through gears, dies and a crank handle. It can not only squeeze and deform a penny [coin] it puts a design like the example Mike shows. Some can be rather complicated and very well detailed..

So, there is a die in there, gears and the crank handle. With a few simple turns of the crank the penny comes out with its design on it and a slight bend to it. It would be rather simple to cut a HR design die and incorporate it in the machine.. Maybe some combination of casting and this? Maybe we don't have a clue! wink

any other ideas out there??

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
thats because private purchase rings are die pressed. I own a few period working dies. Have seen many others..

IF the HR was cast why does the big 'die flaw' remain on the Sig runen? Why wouldn't it be quickly repaired in the next batch of cast rings... We are missing something all of us.


Evidence is not questionable in this case. And it is very clear they were cast. Nor pressed, nor die struck. Cast.
The only very detailed and sharp areas are those hand finished, and almost each ring (especially '30 style) has some.
We shouldn't complicate what is clear and no need, IMO, strange combos of production processes.

No one will ever answer your question, but you can do the same question for tens of ugly pieces made during the Reich. For example the Bandenkampfabzeichen, one of the most rare badge is for sure the worst ever made.

Furthermore many rings show hand made details that are not what we would expect to see in a such kind of ring (see picture below for example). But our feelings are only "our", and I'm quite sure that nobody during the Reich noticed about the flaws we are talking about here.
Gahr did thousands rings every year, it means in the months prior to delivery dates they made tens each day.

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The antipartisan badge? It is a crazy looking thing, but they had some creative ideas I guess- CCC also an interesting piece, lots going on there. If only we could go back in time and get all the answers!

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OMG, once again "cast".... We are long over 1st of April!
Please, can you explain me the seam behind the death head and the seperate death head??? If they were (cheaply) cast this all would not ne necessary. Cast a series of rings in each size, including the death head, and voila.
These original TK honor rings never have been cast.

The rough silver bars for sure have been cast, prior to the stamping process, therefore any bubbles can be included.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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hi members
good afternoon yes you are right again wotan OMG cast some people just love to beat a dead horse perhaps we can get some old dna from dead gahr factory workers to answer these tough questions that i think is piddly dunk . hey guys how about just sit back put away your strong magnification scopes and enjoy the few years we have left in this great hobby gaspare has been doing a fantastic job trying to hold our great ring forum together with out this above presure oh yes everybody has an opinion including my butt i think this topic has run its course and thanks so much woton for your great opinion i agree fully hope every body else agrees have a great day and god bless all andy militarynut

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Andy
I agree. You can 'What if" and worry about something so much it will make you sick. I think for the most part not all of us are going to be sitting around with high poser magnifiers or trying to account for every nick and line on a ring. Enjoy life and your collection while you can! Life is too short.
Ron

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Originally Posted by wotan
OMG, once again "cast".... We are long over 1st of April!
Please, can you explain me the seam behind the death head and the seperate death head??? If they were (cheaply) cast this all would not ne necessary. Cast a series of rings in each size, including the death head, and voila.
These original TK honor rings never have been cast.

The rough silver bars for sure have been cast, prior to the stamping process, therefore any bubbles can be included.

Regards,

Seam is the easiest thing to explain, and the reason is the same of what you think: resize a ring.
What you write is wrong, since the mold was only 1, and it would be a waste of money to make tens of different molds for the different sizes, it is easier make 1 only and resize the ring.
Skull is cast too.
And costs are almost the same: 1 mold and nothing more (2 if we include the skull).

If they were never being cast can you explain why there's no one single runic panel or recess in every TK ring that has no pressure signs? Die struck is a pressure process, vertical (and relief) areas MUST be straight, no questions about.
Can you explain why all the rings show casting signs everywhere? Look at the 4 pictures I posted (I have tens but if you know the difference between a die struck and a cast piece, you would have no doubt simply with one look at the 4 I posted): it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE make rings like those with a stamping process.
Can you explain why there are orizontal recesses? How can you obtain them with a stamping process?!?

I have nothing to earn from this thread, just share what I photographed. Pictures I posted are unquestionable, they talk by themselves and you simply can't explain them with another unquestionable proof as I did. If you don't trust your eyes that's fine for me.
But please, show us a single evidence that explain why these rings are struck an not cast.

PS: look at the picture below: the metal shows bubblings in exactly the same way in an original and in a cast fake too. Just the cast fake has lost a little bit of details.

0_1.jpg (40.05 KB, 296 downloads)
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You can find this bubblings in ALL the rings.
This is in a '30 style ring.
How can be ever die struck?!?!?
Same area of 2 rings shows the same macro details and is completely different in micro details: bubblings is different from ring to ring (that's normal for casting pieces).

I repeat: I win nothing thinking they are cast. No one wins nothing. I only find interesing to find real unquestionable proofs, and until today no one ever showed a single one, only theories. Here there are tens of proofs.


PS: can't understand why pictures change size when attached here...

runa asterisco2_1.jpg (47.48 KB, 293 downloads)
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* Antonio,, I applaud your work and efforts! There is something we are all missing so lets all take it slow a bit..

PLEASE have a look at this site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost-wax_casting

It shows all the steps for lost wax cast / investment casting... So first things first,,, Lets make sure we are all talking about the same thing..

*Antonio , by looking at this site are you saying this is how the HR was made?

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Man,, this is all some deep stuff... I?m gonna be honest and say- I cant really tell what I?m supposed to even be looking at in most of these pics! The magnification is so high, you could tell me it?s proof of life on mars and I?d say sure, but I?m no scientist.. anyone else have this problem?? Antonio, I also totally applaud your efforts here- but for me, we need to dumb this down a little... we don?t look in the microscope as intently or as often (if at all) as you do.. heck, you could have posted that last photo with the caption- ?January 1977- cover of High Times magazine- Maui Wowee!? And i would have believed that... sorry for sounding like an ignorant fool, and again- much respect to the work you have done!! But, I need a little help on these pics..., thanks!

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Ok, you are right, maybe I didn't exaplain very well.

Since it is a little bit complicated to explain everythng in english, I try to let the pictures talk for me.

Yes, I think these rings were cast, with a negative mold. But lost wax was not the only casting method existing.

Casting signs are present in all the rings. For example the sharp edges of the die struck pieces are not present in these rings.
See picture below, where you can see a comparison between a rune in a TK ring and a edge of a "S" in a SS long service medal.

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Other die struck items, this time in zinc. Zinc is not similar for comparisons, because its behaviour it totally different, anyway even with zinc die struck pieces the edges are straight and dont's show rounded or recessed parts.

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If you take an original, and made a mold with it, and prepare a cast fake, the reaction of the base metal is the same.
If you compare the same recessed areas of an original and of a cast fake, you'll see there's no difference in the base metal. This means that the originals were casted too.

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And of course the metal peeling of the skull is an unquestionable proof that they were cast.

S7302195_1.jpg (69.77 KB, 258 downloads)
S7302195_DUSKOW_1.jpg (68.58 KB, 258 downloads)
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Lets keep the skulls out because as mentioned Don has already said they were cast and I believe there is someone that has a couple period unused skulls..


I wish I had a bigger notebook on these rings as I've never taken a very big interest in them. Years ago SO many 'experts' were wrong about what they were saying I just let them be..



OK, Die pressed: Silver bar stock gets locked in press. Die gets locked in press.. Press a button, or a crank,,and the ring is done. A bit of hand finish and done,,almost as long as it takes to read this!!

Cast?? IF anyone took a look at the link at lost wax / investment cast your looking at 5 times the amount of time. Wasted material, and a lot of hand finishing and troubles..Just take a few min and look at that link!!

I do disagree on one thing. Maybe to the normal person the rings look didn't matter. But for Himmler and the SS men getting them,,it mattered how they look. Todays rings are perfect. Perfect because after that first run anything looking bad was repaired..
That big gouge flaw on the left Sig rune is a problem for me... Why would that be there? For me its there because thats a mark from a die cutting tool. And,,once its there , its there.

Also, the inside finish and engraving. It just looks its from a pressed piece of bullion billet. That much engraving you'd hit much more faults. Yes even on a pressed piece you could hit a bubble/fault and when polished it gets worse but you'd see much more with the amount of engraving in a HR..

With what your seeing some sort of method has to be offered. It wasn't lazer scanned, CAD plans, water jet, or whatever,,,it was the 1930s/1940s... What would the method of manufacture be??

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Originally Posted by Gaspare


IF the HR was cast why does the big 'die flaw' remain on the Sig runen? Why wouldn't it be quickly repaired in the next batch of cast rings... We are missing something all of us.



At that period it was just ring, no one did look on this thru microscope.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
this simple old device makes 4 different designs.. Through gears, dies and a crank handle. It can not only squeeze and deform a penny [coin] it puts a design like the example Mike shows. Some can be rather complicated and very well detailed..



We have been there already. We went thru all this 10 years ago. Look old topics.
Depth of TK is too deep for this process. I showed my period giant rolling mill, even that machine can not make that depth.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini

Evidence is not questionable in this case. And it is very clear they were cast. Nor pressed, nor die struck. Cast.
The only very detailed and sharp areas are those hand finished, and almost each ring (especially '30 style) has some.
We shouldn't complicate what is clear and no need, IMO, strange combos of production processes.

No one will ever answer your question, but you can do the same question for tens of ugly pieces made during the Reich. For example the Bandenkampfabzeichen, one of the most rare badge is for sure the worst ever made.



Cast awards of 3reich are made in zinc based alloys, not silver. That is completely diferent story, diferent casting temps, diferent machines etc. For example the Bandenkampfabzeichen is made on pressure injection machine, machines like that does not exist for silver casting even today. Pressure injection machine capabilities stops at aluminum. And those are big, complicated machines for big amounts of pieces made.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by wotan
OMG, once again "cast".... We are long over 1st of April!


The rough silver bars for sure have been cast, prior to the stamping process, therefore any bubbles can be included.



exactly, at the begining there have to be silver bar for pressing, and only way to get it is casting, then rolling to necessary thickness. And sure there is possible small pore from air bubble.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini

Seam is the easiest thing to explain, and the reason is the same of what you think: resize a ring.
What you write is wrong, since the mold was only 1, and it would be a waste of money to make tens of different molds for the different sizes, it is easier make 1 only and resize the ring.
Skull is cast too.
And costs are almost the same: 1 mold and nothing more (2 if we include the skull).



WRONG

I used to make cheap TK rings by casting for some wholesellers too. Since there was need for different sizes I had 10 "rubbers" (rubber molds) for diferent sizes. I spent one day making 10 diferent size models, one day mor making rubbers and saved weeks on labor to resize rings. Each rubber mold costs less than $10.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by Gaspare



Also, the inside finish and engraving. It just looks its from a pressed piece of bullion billet. That much engraving you'd hit much more faults. Yes even on a pressed piece you could hit a bubble/fault and when polished it gets worse but you'd see much more with the amount of engraving in a HR..




I've made thousands TK rings cast and die struck. Also hand engraved them a lot. Since I started to make notes approx in 2005 I've made little over 10 000 rings. So as engraver I will say that no way anybody would engrave such amonts of rings in round (finished) ring. It simply does not make sense. Next thing is quality/structure of metal for engraving. Cast metal ALWAYS is porous and often makes trouble with engraving.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by Gaspare

With what your seeing some sort of method has to be offered. It wasn't lazer scanned, CAD plans, water jet, or whatever,,,it was the 1930s/1940s... What would the method of manufacture be??




Bottomline.

Silver casting at that time in Germany was not method of production of jewelry.
Look at other Otto Gahrs firm products - there are only die struck or hand made from scratch things.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Lets keep the skulls out because as mentioned Don has already said they were cast and I believe there is someone that has a couple period unused skulls..


If the skull is cast why not the ring? Following the "logic" of the die struck supporters it is easier to make a die for the skull too.



Originally Posted by Gaspare
OK, Die pressed: Silver bar stock gets locked in press. Die gets locked in press.. Press a button, or a crank,,and the ring is done. A bit of hand finish and done,,almost as long as it takes to read this!!


Die pressed CAN'T do inclined recesses or orizontal recesses. No questions about. Furthermore edges and recessed areas are all irregular, no one is straight as should be if pressed.

Originally Posted by Gaspare
Cast?? IF anyone took a look at the link at lost wax / investment cast your looking at 5 times the amount of time. Wasted material, and a lot of hand finishing and troubles..Just take a few min and look at that link!!

Lost wax was not the oly casting method.

Originally Posted by Gaspare
I do disagree on one thing. Maybe to the normal person the rings look didn't matter. But for Himmler and the SS men getting them,,it mattered how they look. Todays rings are perfect. Perfect because after that first run anything looking bad was repaired..
That big gouge flaw on the left Sig rune is a problem for me... Why would that be there? For me its there because thats a mark from a die cutting tool. And,,once its there , its there.

Maybe whas immler himself to order the rings were made from melting silver. It could have more meanings for example in his esoteric new religion... Who knows?

That die flaw is recessed in rings and in relief in the mold, for casting or pressing is the same. It means they could have removed it with small files or small chisels.


Originally Posted by Gaspare
Also, the inside finish and engraving. It just looks its from a pressed piece of bullion billet. That much engraving you'd hit much more faults. Yes even on a pressed piece you could hit a bubble/fault and when polished it gets worse but you'd see much more with the amount of engraving in a HR..

I've done cast rings and the inside is perfectly matching with originals.

Originally Posted by Gaspare
With what your seeing some sort of method has to be offered. It wasn't lazer scanned, CAD plans, water jet, or whatever,,,it was the 1930s/1940s... What would the method of manufacture be??

Mold, cast, resize, engraved, skull attached and... delivered!
I think will never know for sure the exact way, but finding traces of wax on almost the rings I've seen, they could be a trace... Who knows?

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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini
Originally Posted by Gaspare

[quote=Gaspare]Cast?? IF anyone took a look at the link at lost wax / investment cast your looking at 5 times the amount of time. Wasted material, and a lot of hand finishing and troubles..Just take a few min and look at that link!!

Lost wax was not the oly casting method.



Name at least one more, please. smile


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by hapur

I've made thousands TK rings cast and die struck. Also hand engraved them a lot. Since I started to make notes approx in 2005 I've made little over 10 000 rings. So as engraver I will say that no way anybody would engrave such amonts of rings in round (finished) ring. It simply does not make sense. Next thing is quality/structure of metal for engraving. Cast metal ALWAYS is porous and often makes trouble with engraving.


Please Hapur, why do you say that?
You can obtain very good cast rings and engrave them without any problem.
Even the cheaper way to make a copy can reach good results.

Anyway we need proofs, here proofs led us in one direction only: they were cast. It is not me, it is not a theory, it is the metal that speaks by itself. Rings tell us how they were made, not us to them. I've done nice copies trying various ways, and if you don't look at them with big magnifier or microscope, you don't see they are copies. Engraving is the minor problem if you really want to copy those rings.
Until today I read only theories and words, and saw NO ONLY single evidence that TK rings were pressed or die struck. The reason is very simple: because they weren't.

Proofs pro stamping: 0

Proofs pro casting:
1) Base metal is matching with cast copies
2) edges are all irregular
3) no pressure signs
4) casting signs everywhere.
5) EACH RING shows different cast signs, no one is perfectly matching with another.
These proofs are irrefutable.

6) skulls are cast too.

PS: this is the worst TK ring copy I've done. And it actually is one of the best copies I've seen around.

z1.jpg (55.24 KB, 218 downloads)
Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 04/26/2018 08:58 AM.
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Hello Antonio Scapini, first I will hold on that you have done a lot for the collectorship. I see the efforts and the constant look for details. Writing high quality books, like you habe done has to be acknowledged, very few collectors are able to do this. And -naturally- each collector is permitted to have his own opinion about a fact, an item or so.
I have studied those honor rings for decades, do own several and have owned some more. I never did study the hrs with such a high magnification you do because I cannot find out anything with these high magnification and these high magnification pics. 7 or 10 times magnification watchmakers loups are fine for me.
I have had the luck to own and study an unworn ring which did come with the ORIGINAL PAPER BAG from GAHR (several information about the bestowed person have been written on this certain bag) and the ORIGINAL RING WRAPPING PAPER. On such a ring I could find no questionable inclined recesses or orizontal recesses. Imho these recesses do appear already with the hand enhancing and the first wear.
I have had the luck to own and study a nearly unworn ring with a stamping/pressing/rolling error. There you could see where the stamp (let me say so for all these processes, I do not know the different names as English is also not my motherlanguage) has torn out a piece of silver. Form and nature of this error clearly has shown (to me) that the ring has been pressed/stamped/rolled - but not cast.
Sorry, I have no pics but I know what I have seen. I too have nothing to earn from this thread but it is necessary to find the truth about the manufacturing process as it is important to isolate the fakes (how good they are) from the originals.
Btw I am also always a protectionist for the (true) version that the ring first had been bent and soldered together bevore the engraving. Collectors who claim that the rings have been engravedon the "bar" never have studied the engraving and never have spoken to old german hand engravers. If you study the engravings on period rings you see that these engravings have all sure signs of the "closed ring engraving theory".
I am sorry that I cannot got more into details because of my very limited knowledge on the technical expresses in english and at least, as said already each collector is permitted to have his own opinion. Although, if it is a wrong opinion, the certain collector is always in danger to catch a fake and to support, naturally unwillingly(!!!), fakers...
Just my 2 cts from a simple collector who also wants to enjoy the original objects of collecting.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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About the engraving Hapur, I can make it appear new, old, scratched, worn, very worn, with patina, without patina....
Just invest some money, find the right jewellers and engravers and everything is possible.

Again: let the pictures talk themselves. If we want discuss about theories without any foundation we will not move of a single step. If we want to discuss the real evidences maybe we can go on.
I think I showed many here, and no one can confute them with other proofs. Of course we can close our eyes and, as a blind, go on.

I thought me too these rings were die struck, but everything is screaming the contrary and I found NO ONLY ONE proof to support what I thought.

BTW: just a couple of shots of a worn engraving on a cast fake ring.

z14.jpg (41.42 KB, 209 downloads)
z13.jpg (44.72 KB, 209 downloads)
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Originally Posted by wotan
On such a ring I could find no questionable inclined recesses or orizontal recesses. Imho these recesses do appear already with the hand enhancing and the first wear.
I have had the luck to own and study a nearly unworn ring with a stamping/pressing/rolling error. There you could see where the stamp (let me say so for all these processes, I do not know the different names as English is also not my motherlanguage) has torn out a piece of silver. Form and nature of this error clearly has shown (to me) that the ring has been pressed/stamped/rolled - but not cast.


So Hapur, without seeing the base metal, only with a 7-10 magnifier, you think you saw the details?
Why don't you explain to me the meaning of the pictures I posted and how can the metal of ALL the TK rings to react those ways? Bubblings, casting signs, irregular edges...

Exaplain especially the pint number 5:
Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini


Proofs pro stamping: 0

Proofs pro casting:
1) Base metal is matching with cast copies
2) edges are all irregular
3) no pressure signs
4) casting signs everywhere.
5) EACH RING shows different cast signs, no one is perfectly matching with another.
These proofs are irrefutable.

6) skulls are cast too.

Send me one of your pressed rings and I will show you the difference between a pressed and a cast ring!

Let me expain: I posted pictures magnified until 700 times,and if you look at the 900 more magnification you laugh looking at the casting signs you see in the base metal. In ALL the rings. '30 or '40.

Anyway I repeat, here are solid evidences, I thought it was so clear that makes you amazed as I was. I was mistaken. Abstract words and old stories worth much more that factual scientific evidences.
That's fine for me.

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hi, i'm a little confused. I've been following your thread on waf in which you condem honer rings for being cast, now you say that good honer rings are cast. which is correct ?. mike

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I too have no investment in whether its cast or pressed. Tell you guys one thing,,,if proven they're cast,,they're not going to worth a dime,,but first things first:

what needs to be done is a little experimentation. But first:

1. The flaw on the sig rune is big. Not even a magnifying glass is needed. You can see it while its being worn! SO, if cast and so easy to fix why wasn't it? The thinking is because its on the die and once there it stays there.

2, we shouldn't get hung up on open or closed engraving. It's been proven that its possible that it could have been done either way ....

3. for those that say there are other ways of manufacture the question has been asked a couple times,,what are the other ways?

- for an experiment I'd like to see a die pressed ring ,,something simple a WestWall or similar. Have a look at 700, then 900 and lets see what can be seen. Antonio,,do you have anything to use?

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For my money, I'll take a "die-struck" ring any day.

It's just a better look and better quality, of course this is just my opinion.


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Originally Posted by polop
hi, i'm a little confused. I've been following your thread on waf in which you condem honer rings for being cast, now you say that good honer rings are cast. which is correct ?. mike

Hi Mike, I'm always open to new discoveries. I'm always ready to change my mind when proofs are solid.
In this case the only possible explanation of what we see here is only one: they were cast. In no other way is possible to obtain rings made like these TK rings.

Of course each of us is free to believe what he sees, or believe other stories. I trust only evidences, as I always did. If someone says that these pictures are not interesting since he sees nothing, then I can only suggest to study how metals react being cast or pressed (but it would be enough to look at the picture below to understand everything: original and fake base silver shows air bubblings in the same way, not possible to obtain with a die struck process).
I repeat, until today no one single proof these rings are struck is surfaced, and it is not possible to explain the way they are made if you don't think they are cast.
If someone has better evidences for sure I would be happy to see them.

Anyway the world goes round even if we think that they are die struck, or if we think the SS champagne decals are good, or if we think the earth is flat. Just thought to share here what I found interesting, hoping to see other posting good pictures.
This is a hobby, not a matter of life.

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