UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum Luftwaffe Air Gunner ring

Also, please guys [I'm guilty myself too],,,We MUST keep it to one ring per topic. Once others get brought into the mix things get to be a circus and nothing gets done..

To bad you don't put much in to my opinion. All I can offer is my 30 plus years of collecting these things. Collecting them when most would say 'hey throw them in the scrape pile!'
I also have family that were diamond setters in NYC back in the 30s to early 60s. And, as I hate school 20 years ago or so I actually enrolled in a amateur jewelry making class! I sucked as it does take a bit of artistic talent,,and sorry to say I'm no artist!
I'm not writing all this to toot my own horn. Every so many years we get a whole different group of members here and we don't all know anything about each other. But maybe to show you Trigg I'm not playing here for anything or anyone. I started here years ago because I hate rip-off artists, hate to see someone spend their hard earned money and get bull ******** in return. Man! what a bad feeling that is!! and we have ALL had that feeling!

Some rings we can agree to disagree on. But things like those #lines,,,,and that hallmark series,,are just ridiculous!! They my friend are pure signs of a cast..

So,,a bit of a introduction of myself... So,can you share with us Trigg? Have you been collecting long? What type to you mainly concentrate on [campaign, Skulls,etc.] I think I remember [please collect me if I'm wrong] you liking Latvian rings..

See, IF we don't know each other because of distance or whatever and never share a bit about ourselves how or why would anyone believe what any of us say!

Sniper33. So this is your ring:

"I do not see any reasons to prove this ring originality because I'm sure that this ring is good. To prove that this ring is not original should do others who don't believe. At the moment I saw only words without facts (macro photos of undoubtful "original" ring) and other spam"

Again,,we don't have to prove it is fake.. You should be offering evidence it is good. The burden of proof is on you my friend..
Please, why do you think this is a authentic ring?

I even showed good photo of my ring. And what did you do? The words and no more. I do not see sense to continue to talk to my ring. Everyone will have an opinion!

Hey, as told.
Be no "barking little dog" (sorry this words), be a man and show closeups of this 3 rings.

Yes, we have a opinion.

XXX ,

,Come on guys this really isn't needed..

XXX,,, it isn't 'great'.
We try and keep a professional attitude here and the rest of the forums on this site. These comments aren;t needed

XXX, Not 'entertaining' one bit..

I have respect and like all you guys. No preferential treatment to anyone.
Myself, Dave, Vern the rest of the Moderators here are ALL here to help, learn some things themselves and,,see some cool stuff!!!

Good time for everyone to re-read the rules. The parts about: Be friendly, polite, positive, and helpful. If you think someone's artifact is not correct or your opinion differs from his or hers, be sure to explain why. Please do not make posts that are calculated to make others angry, damage their reputation, or start arguments.


Also keep in mind that the reason that Gaspare is the Moderator is because of his extensive knowledge of this subject.

It appears to me that we have:

1 original poster seeking an opinion about an air gunner ring.

2 gents - Triggerself and Sniper 33 (who owns the ring) who are trying to "talk it good" without much proof.

Everyone else including Gaspare and some other knowledgeable members saying the ring is not correct.

I'm going to turn this off until about noon on Sunday EST so everyone can relax.

After I re-open this any insulting or argumentative post get the poster a 10 day vacation

Dave
Admin

Please note from above:

After I re-open this any insulting or argumentative post get the poster a 10 day vacation


Dave

Trigg,,, again:

,,I gave a bit of a introduction of myself... So,can you share with us Trigg? Have you been collecting long? What type to you mainly concentrate on [campaign, Skulls,etc.] I think I remember [please collect me if I'm wrong] you liking Latvian rings..

See, IF we don't know each other because of distance or whatever and never share a bit about ourselves how or why would anyone believe what any of us say!

Sniper,,, Yes you showed a photo of the ring,,and yes you said your sure its a good ring.. Again, I offer you to tell us why you think the ring is authentic..
How does it compare to other known originals,,why is the hallmarkslike that? Do you know what the series of hallmarks represent

Yes, sure. I've been collecting not so long - ~5 years. I'm not only collecting only the rings, but also SS items. I have serious Latvian SS collection. My ring collection starts with Latvian pre war rings. Also my passion is collecting skull rings (I like them more than others), but I like to collect other rings - LW, Westwall, Norge, Estonian etc. But my main theme is collecting Latvian and skull rings. My rings ratio: ~50% Latvian ring and ~50% other ring. I'm also an admin of 1st Facebook ring group. Now my group has ~2500 users. About 2 years I'm trying to help people with his questions about the rings.

thanks for the response..
Aahh the Facebook site.. I guess that's all the screen shots my buddy has been sending me. Trigg, The total amount of rings I've sold/traded in my over 15 years here you can count on your hands. So writing I'm making comments/judging rings to make my or whom evers a higher price is pretty ridiculous..
anyway lets stick to this ring..

Sniper wanted to sell it but it didn't pass the grade. I've asked Sniper why does he think the ring is authentic,,Not sure IF we'll get an answer..
Why do you think the ring is authentic? and how do you explain how the hallarks look?

After complete mess in messages and opinions, I've read all posts again and tried to summarize all opinions. As I told later that I don't know how should looks small details of original ring that's why I'm and sniper33 requested members to show them. Also want to tell that sniper33 as me want to know the truth. I've have no idea how should looks details on original ring, but all we have is hallmark - wrong type or correct also unknown. I'm talked with sniper33 about it and he kindly asked me to compare the hallmarks, because nobody share detailed photos of the original ring hallmarks (not from other rings like it showed Odal, but from the same air gunner ring) which can be used to detailed comparison. sniper33 sent to me detailed macro photo of his ring hallamark. I've took a macro photo of my hallmark from westwall skull ring (on the top on photo) and compared with sniper33 (on the middle on photo). Also from his archives sniper33 sent to me same hallmark from another air gunner ring (on the bottom on photo). After my comparison I've found that hallmark from my ring is not textbook example, but clearly visible and without pittings. After this comparison I can tell that both (middle and bottom on photo) air gunner hallmarks are bad. Now I'm agree with those who pointed on hallmark. But front side details are still unknown for me. I'm still don't know the difference. I think after this comparison sniper33 also will agree with me that the hallmark is casted.

Why I and sniper33 not agreed at once at the beginning of the topic? Because this ring was bought from well known German auction Ratisbon's from Klaus Butschek. He's selling ONLY original items and ring was bought as ORIGINAL. That's why I and sniper33 wanted detailed investigation because no one wants to slander well known seller with good reputation without any proofs. Now we have a fact (hallmark comparison) which proofs that hallmark looks different. Hallmark seems to be casted and we clearly see it in this photo, no extra words and opinions needed - everything is on this photo. That's why I and sniper33 asked to show photos of original ring.

I know Gottlieb (Piotr) very long time, we dealt, communicating time to time and you think that I'm let to buy a fake if I know it? Of course not. Now we have (I think so) strong evidence which proofs that this ring is fake. If someone shared some detailed photo of front side we would have more evidences. Of course this is no secure, because counterfeiters around, but small photo with hatchwork # on original ring I think was enough.

In conclusion I want to state that only in comparison we can find the truth and strong evidences, not in opinions or suggestions.

Now I'm happy and I'm suggest sniper33 to contact Klaus Butschek and return his money back. Hope this will be useful to all collectors.

2 different hallmarks from 2 rings or one hallmark pics in different light and a little different angle of view?
Build your opinion yourself.

they look the same ? stange

Here is original photos. Still don't see the difference? First photo detailed hallmark from ring from this topic. Second photo detailed hallmark from ring from sniper33 photo archive.

Trigg,, forget stories,,and forget Dealers. To date EVERY dealer and auction site has at one time or another sold [knowing or unknowingly] a fake ring period..

For me ALL the airgunners hallmarks are poor cast in fakes whether they are the same or different ring..

During WW1 the law was to hallmark silver with the content and the half moon and crown. Here is shown the actual law.
OK,,during the 3rd reich they loosened things up a bit,,the hallmark didn't have to be on anymore.. Now some old time jewelers included it anyway.
So these hallarks you show are supposed to be:

The silver content [835],,
next supposed to be the half moon and crown,,
and then the semi half circle with Ln in it..

You can not even make out what any of then are except the content and that's all messed up too. IF you have to return anything a mention of all this is all the proof you would need. They are all horrible looking,,the Dealer must/has to know it does not have to be from the exact ring to prove!

Here is the WW1 law-

from Nazi era,,,2 good known hallmarks... The dealer must / has to know it doesn't have to be the exact hallmarks from the exact ring,,bad is bad. And good is good...
IF the dealer has a problem,,ask HIM to prove to you it is good!

You know what is for me interesting ? Why on each presumed as a good hallmark number "3" differs from number "3" on so called casted hallmark ? The shape of this number is different.

This is a different stamp. So "3" different.

First one is a stamp but this second one is not by the way

I thought it was determined that it was cast, not stamped

Yes it is a fake cast-in mark. No two ways about it. If u see it in your loupe before u buy, great- hand ring back to seller and walk away.

It is necessary to consider a caveat. Hallmarks wear. A reprint of the old stamp might not look as a printed new. Surely they are constantly updated. The ability to use several at once.

Yes- caveat emptor....

Gottlieb, Byz,etc,,correct, not way that is a stamp,,pure cast,,burned, pitted etc..

A flat top 3 or a different numeral from maker to maker is fine..

I borrowed some tools a few years ago for a couple days.. I had been saving up scrap jewelry of all types, gold, silver,,earrings, bracelets, rings anything and everything etc.. I was stamping everything! After a short while you know when something is stamped..
Experts stamp very evenly and with a perfect hit.. Too light a hit and you might not get the whole stamp evenly.. The one here with the Ln,,was hit just a tad hard,,and you see it kind of pillows out around it [its actually something you want to see!]..

There is no die stamp made/around that will produce hallmarks that look like the ones on the Luft ring..

Hope you guys can return and get your money back for the ring..

I know a least 5 Frey hallmark types with/without Ln mark (all those I have), why you think that there should be only 1 good type of Frey hallmark - 835 F* Ln?

I agree,,,,I'm not communicating correctly,,,
- there are early examples late etc. I'm talking about you will not see anything stamped like that because it is not stamped. It is cast in..
Actually,, I had 2 of these air gunner rings. One was unmarked,,the other had the early F star mark [in rounded off rectangle]. Personally I like the messing examples and that's all Ihave at the moment. I'd love to get one with all the wash still on it! [very hard to find!]

this is one of my first rings.. All beat up,,no wash left,,its had a hard life.. I'd love to see a mint,,or even a fairly good example of it..

I have the same in good shape. I will show after the work

Here is my ring

VERY nice guys! hard to find with the wash still on it! Thanks guys....

I had this pattern with yellow ename once.

interesting auction:

http://www.ebay.at/itm/7-Ringe-Silber-Kupfer-/112215245038?hash=item1a208cc0ee:g:jbMAAOSw-0xYNxkG

Odal, if you advertise my items on ebay. Show the other items. Or is it love to me? I prefer girls.

I cannot get the link to open up.

Wolf,,,I remember that ring!! a rare thing! I have a photo but can't get to it,,you still have a shot?

I believe the auction was for a 'lot' of rings on German eBay [?] In the sale is the reproduction air gunners. Being sold as a lot [with other rings],,not sure if listed as authentic or not. it is what it is,,there are others that appear to be campaign rings that could be fine,,can't really see them good though..