UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum Luftwaffe Air Gunner ring

This ring also fake?

For me not worth any more discussion.

You're predictable

Trigg,,Odal,,Please guys.. We are colleagues here. No one is here to hurt the other. We are here to help each other. Lets not give up here..

1st,,Trigg,,,yes you can cast things even much smaller with even better detail. I've seen it personally with small/miniature parts.
These rings are made from working dies. Tools are used to make/cut the master dies. On your photo #322997? It is horrible, waxy looking thing. YES, there is a tool that makes a hatchwork [#] type look. It is small,,and sometimes they have to overlap but it does not ever look like that!

Ln marks are usually in pre war rings. Especially late 20s, early 30s. Here is a advert showing that their mark in on many different pieces of jewelry from small to big..

another,, this shows the Ln mark,,lower right....

here is a Ln mark on a authentic ring. It is not in the series type like shown on your ring but just to show another way it can be in a ring..

this is the typical Ln mark in the series we used to seeing in Skull, WW, and in some of the Luft rings.. No matter how small, how worn the mark can just about be seen.. Does the series on the Luft ring you show even look remotely like this? It doesn't. Its burnt, blank, non distinguishable. This is because that Luft ring is cast my friend. Because of the hallmarks, because the members here like Odal and Evgeniy etc. who have been collecting for years
are trying to help you with. You can take it negatively, but that's not how they are advising you. They are telling you out of helping one collector to another.. I too agree 100% that the Luft ring shown at the beginning is a good fake.

IF you really like it,,go ahead and buy it. IF it make you happy then that's what it is all about. BUT,,if you ask an opinion,,,your going to get them good or bad....

Trigg,,, here's one of the best fakes of a WW/WF ring there is! it is only let down by its hallmark ,which I will not show but is in the series with the Ln and mess like the Luft shown...

I've had an email,,saying,,"how do we know such a Luft ring even existed..


We're here to help,,my keyboard is messed up and it took me almost 2 hrs to make these posts but want to help..

Much thanks to Odal for posting photos and Evgeniy for their opinions..

Gaspare, this is Odal ring and he's showing me this ring as original. Here the proof. So where is the truth now? Or may be original rings became fake when need to represent discussed ring as fake OR it became original when need to proof some ring an make it original?

I'm still don't see original macro photos of the front side of original ring, why Odal or you is hiding them? May be because they are the same? Of course they are the same!

Interesting to see that mystical toot that makes a hatchwork [#].

So where is the photos of the original one? Really want to see original texture and edged lines of the front side of the ring. Only small piece of details.

How about Hapur's opinion as n expert craftsman? He could perhaps explain the details more..?

Evgeniy talked more than collect. He has few rings. I have more than 100 ring in my collection so I also understand what I'm talking about. You, Odal and Evgeniy can have own opinion, but I'm still not see the facts. There is a lot of garbage - photos with Ln marks from WW era womens magazines, hallmarks from other rings, but not original macro photo of front side of original air gunner ring. I see only double standarts - in one moment Odal showed original ring, in othe you showed the same ring only as "superfake". Strange...

I believe that the seller of the luft ring that started this thread is sniper33. it would be useful to hear his opinion .he may be able to clear this up.

I do not see any reasons to prove this ring originality because I'm sure that this ring is good. To prove that this ring is not original should do others who don't believe. At the moment I saw only words without facts (macro photos of undoubtful "original" ring) and other spam

the WWskull photo I posted had this photo as the hallmarks.. IF, if they are then in my opinion I don't like it..

Trigg,, I collect rings,,not tools.. I've seen them. One is a wheel that makes the edge design of the DAK ring. Others are the tools to stamp content marks on already rounded rings, there are daps, punches,and a small hatchwork stamp [#]. It is small and used to make the marks on that luft ring.[probably/originally used to make a holding surface for enamel] On occasion they will overlap but you will see that its from a tool. The Luft ring at the beginning the hatch work is from what me friend?! What would leave crooked, wavey, mushy lines..

You and the seller,,you see we don't have to prove its a fake. In all collectables the burden of proof is on the presenter of the piece to prove its good,,we say its not. Have opinions from those who have the ring or have seen many. [also some good photos]
- And by the way,,because Evgeniy does not have 100 rings does mean he doesn't have knowledge. He's been at it a long time and has seen much and understands much. My daughter has her Masters in art restoration,,she doesn't own any Picassos but has been able to tell a few owners that theirs were copies!

Still I don't see pics from front side of original ring, still want to see details of # pattern on original ring. Just small detailes photo
Words are good but I'm believe in facts not in opinion. Opinion are good when there is no facts. Also check hatchwork texture and you don't find any similar lines and squares.

For me this ring is more accurate and more detailed than Odal rings. I want to see macro shot from one of Odal air gunner ring. I bet it has worse details and it looks more bogus on macro photo that this ring.

+1 well said.... fakers read these threads no doubt they'd love to know how to make an authentic ring, I agree that the burden of proof lies on proving the authenticity... what makes these (IMHO fake) rings authentic? Period ads with the Laurin mark and seeing it on a real ring are proof. Show me a period ring ad or photo with that mushy stuff and you will have a point... beyond that, we can just say a piece is "self-authenticating" but really.... how did that turn out for the author if the above mentioned quote;) ?

Trigg,, lets stick to this Luft ring...
Both these photos are of the ring correct?..

IF you can not recognize this it is because maybe your inexperience.. Please show these photos or ring to any competent jeweler..
Both this photos are indications of a cast piece. I also agree with the dots show by others ,,pure signs of a cast.
Because you don't agree it doesn't change the facts,,the ring is cast = postwar..End of story..

I have to say of all people I have met or conversed with in the ring collecting world over the last few years I respect G's opinion more than anyone.....trust me guys if he's says cast fake that's what it is

But hey its your money......fakers are getting really really good!

Both photos are of the ring, correct.

I'm already showed this photo to two jewelers in Riga and they told me that so small details can't be done by casting - impossible, there should be places where silver can't fill, but there is no such places.

This is not a fact, just your subjective opinion. This ring will be original until you or Odal don't show to me the exactly the same places of the ring which can proof that this ring is not good. No macro photos no facts. No facts - ring was and stays original until you or Odal proof with macro photos oposite. If you don't want so please do not tell that this ring is casted fake. Really, I'm more than full with your opinions which proofs nothing. All I want to see are macro photos of orignal (in your opinion) ring - that's all.

Hi Trigger. A few years ago I was collecting rings. I had about 300 rings in my hand. With the help of Gaspare, Odal and other collectors I gained a big knowledge and knew how to look at a ring and how to recognized a fake. Your ring is definitely casted. We don't need to go into more detail. But the hallmark is enough. Casted, pits, mushy and definitely miles away from the correct hallmark. I know it is sad to hear when you've just got a nice ring and you are proud of it and then you just find out it is a fake. But this is the fact.

Hey, Wolf. There is so many experts around who can recognize fake but can't proof it by showing orignal example. C'mon experts, show us how should looks like original ring or you afraid that your ring looks worse than this ring or looks the same?

"We don't need to go into more detail" - Sad to read unproven information only based on gained experience.

P.S This is not mine ring

P.S.S I believe Odal ring looks more casted than this ring.

Okay Trigger

Enaugh!
Usually i am not the guy to expose someone.
But now it`s time to talk about your with help of some friendly guys very quick learned knowledge about the stuff we discuss here.

A few weeks ago you baught from one seller in ebay 3 boxed rings, you were very happy with and presented them as originals at at least 2 places in the web.

Too bad, they came from my city (Heilbronn/Germany). I know them (not sold as originals) and had times ago the chance to have them in hands, inspect and maybe buy them rather cheap.
I did not.
Postwar, fakes, trash....however you will name them.

So now, do it like men do, show this rings here and let some experienced collectors tell their opinion about.

Thanks

Here the still srceaming ebay pics:

XXX
sorry,,,please lets stick to subject..

Sorry Marc
I have to correct you.
This starting ring is not Triggers.
It belongs to sniper, Triggers friend.

And if it is needful i can tell a real interesting story about an other superfake.

I've not found a reason to question G�tz' intent ever on rings- and to be honest, he has been a very patient and kind mentor to me, especially when G was out with hip surgery.... besides the fact that he has saved me hundreds of dollars on potentially bad rings- I see no reason to question him any further for loads of reasons; - all of which have been stated... here's one more- we want to help Piotr. G�tz ring isn't even for sale. No one has a dog in this fight (except Piotr who we all hope did not buy this ring). As to these pieces posted above (the skulls) one thing I've learned above all others is this- skulls are very tough, but these are not. Top to bottom - ring 1....(??) I can't even comment. Ring 2 is iffy off the bat but I would need confirmation of my suspicions by seeing the back and inside. I would be very surprised if it was not postwar. Ring 3- even less confident than ring 2- and guys, believe me-- I am being as charitable as a nun on xmas. Furthermore, I feel we have lost the plot here to the original discussion and are sort of beating a dead horse as they say- at best this has become redundant and it's at risk of becoming much more personal IMHO than our moderator or admins here tolerate. Out of respect to the interested parties, and of course to our esteemed mod who does this all out of care for the hobby- I'm going to make a motion that the thread be closed. I think we have heard enough (and trigg- really where this is going isn't good for anyone- I know G�tz and he does not want to ever "go there." It will be better for the reputation of all.) anyway motion on the table...any seconds?

Thanks Byz!
Much to kind words.

If i can remember right, i am some years older, Trigger was bannend in the war relics Forum about a year ago.

Excuse me
I want him here.
At least as long he has showed good pics of this 3 rings i mentioned.

Your rings at least two are bad, sorry. Westwall which Gaspare showed as superfake is your ring, also air gunner ring with casting flaws also I believe is fake from this photos. May be you should manage your rings first than "help" to other people?

Nice that you have inspect my rings and told your "professional" opinion which definetely proofs that they are fake

Oh man.....junior needs to show some respect.....odal and G are 2 people who deserve more respect than being called quotation professional.....they ARE professional in the ring collecting world, their experience and reputation are above reproach.....

XXX

P. , this is not going to happen here.. Please if you can contribute then great.

Every time I saw "waiting for Gaspare/Odal opinion" they are last hope to others? C'mon why we should trust his or other people opinions? Why don't show comparison with original ring (macro photos of some complicated places) which proofs if ring good or bad? I'm only for comparison with original when ring is not screaming fake. That's all! Nothing special.

For instance there is nice original ring from vetaran or attic (real ring from WW2 period) ring and then Odal or Gaspare told that this ring is fake because they don't like something (for instance story or scratch or hit on the ring). Does this ring became fake and you will throw away this ring or it will stay original for you and others who believe? Simple question

As I told above I'm for the truth only, I like to compare rings, find differences (red flags) and show it why I think so. Every time when I say fake/original I can show photos which can proof something for request.

I'm really don't like this situation, everything can be differently. With all respect to others I realy hate fakes, but more I hate when good rings became fake and otherwise. I do not have in mind to offent Odal or Gaspare this was just my "IMHO". Nothing personal

If this ring is fake - great, but there is still unanswered questions. How looks original? Where is comparison? Why type of the hallmark can be only one type? Great that people left there his opinions, but opinions should based on facts/proofs and not on attitude (like/don't like how it looks) to the ring.

Very sad that Odal or other collector can't proof that discussed ring in not original by showing his macro photo comparison. That's all I want, no opinions, no guess-works - only simple comparison of some complicated places on the ring. Just choose two macro photos of discussed ring, make your own and compare. That's all.

Trigg problem is you are making this personal.. Its not we're here to help... Sad that who ever you brought it too couldn't see they are cast. Like I wrote c'ompetent' jeweler.

Maybe show the photos on a silver forum. Sorry but who ever told you they aren't cast is wrong. Don't know what I can say to have you believe me. Those 2 photos show its cast. I mean come on,,look at the hallmarks,,clearly cast.
We got to keep this proper guys .. AND,, lets keep it to the Luft ring. IF there is another problem with a ring open another topic..

Ok guys I have started this thread and it is time to close it. For Your information I passed over this ring. This lesso would cost me too much. One thing I know for sure I will always ask here about silver rings I have not experienced yet. Thanks and good day. Let the peace be with You !!!!

I'm not making this personal, really. I have one information you another, It's okay that information can differs - this makes discussion more interesting (of course if it goes friendly). This is hot topic and definetely deserves attention and if some want explanation (we are all here to help each other) we should gave it.

About hallmarks, I saw at least 4 rings (skulls and luftwaffe) with same hallmark, all was rought and not perfect. That's why I'm trying to discuss them deeper.

Sorry, what is silver forum?