UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS dagger authenticity question

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking here for a while and thought it was about time I post

I have spent a lot of time here admiring the profound knowledge and superb collections of the members here.

If I could trouble all of you to take a look at my first (and maybe only) SS dagger and let me know what you think. I paid $3100 and purchased from a well known and respected dealer.

How did I do?

[img:center]http://[/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594k_zpsvowq6xnc.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594m_zpsw8gqbogw.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594o_zps6g2l5cri.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594l_zpsdqkfs4wt.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594n_zpsr45ykpvh.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594p_zpszewxxcti.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594q_zps6kgug8fo.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594j_zpspfl1vruo.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594oo_zpst359ryvx.jpg[/img][/img]

[img:center][img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/starvinmarvin2016/37594r_zpsz4ekw5r0.jpg[/img][/img]

hard to say from pics but it definitely appears to have been de nazified at some point with both eagle and runen button removed and replaced.should this be the case it had to be disclosed and it is a $1500 to $1800 dagger at best and a very tough sell who was dealer???? rsellick@rogers.com cheers Ryan

Here is a picture of the nut. I can see circular lines around the nut that seems to indicate that it has been removed but the dealer told me that "It has not been removed in modern times" What do you make of this?

Thank you!

[img:center][/img]

Thank you Ryan!!

Out of respect, I don't want to disclose the dealer until I have a better understanding of this dagger. If things don't pass the smell test I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a chance to fix any issue (if any)before I say something that might affect his livelihood.

I agree with Ryan, the pics show repairs around the eagle and the runes button. I also agree, the price is very high for a late poor condition SS dagger.

I should try to ask my money back and send the dagger back to the 'respected' dealer...
The only thing he did was ripping you off.
This dagger is been fooled with for sure.
I even think that not all parts are original.
The runesbutton is fake for sure and the eagle is replaced for sure with surrounding gaps filled with filler.
I'm also very curious who this 'respected' dealer might be...

Krikke,

Thank you for your thoughts! I really appreciate you taking the time to look the pictures over

Ask for your money back. It is a put-together of damaged or repaired parts.

Dave

Thank you Dave!

I purchased this from a well known dealer so I thought I would be safe. Could this have been an honest mistake or are the issues with this dagger beyond "honest mistake" for one of the worlds leading authoritys on Nazi daggers?

Thank you and I apologize for all the beginner questions. I just don't want to go making accusations about someones integrity when I truthfully don't know very much about this hobby and told the dealer I am just starting my collecting.

Thank you all,

Kevin

Kevin.

That dagger is very obviously the sum of repaired or distressed parts and it should not take much experience to notice that.

Put up his name if you want

Dave

A well known dealer would of priced it accordingly by condition and desirability....a well known dealer would of known by his own "good sales reputation"........... would of not put a $3100 price tag..on a total repaired grip ..dog chewed crossguards... and a questionable blade motto which appears to be laser etched.

The top guard HAS BEEN OPENED IN MODERN TIMES as that kind of trauma and distress just doesnt happen in a few years during the 3rd Reich period. It has been opened more times than most convenient stores front doors on a daily basis.

Not sure whats going on here..but someones or ourselves chain are being yanked.

A very decent untouch conditioned SS dagger can be found for that $3100 price and by some very reputable dealers here on this forum !! IMO you overpaid by $2000 and thats being generous giving the dealer the benefit of the doubt that whats left of it has some promise of authenticity.

Im curious of the dealer also..and the why hes yanking your chain or are the members here being yanked also !

Regards Larry

Great post Larry! Thank you for your honest assessment. You are all so knowledgeable, its amazing!! I have a lot to learn about this great hobby for sure.

Kevin

** Update**

The dealer is working with me and I think things will be fine. Thank you all for helping start me off in the right direction.

You should buy Ralph Siegert's book regarding SS daggers: 'The Service Daggers of the SS'

PM sent Marvin. Please do your story regarding the dealer here.
I still cannot believe that this dealer sold you this bogus dagger... and for that price!!!!!!!

Name and shame

I know the name of the "dealer" and he should be ashamed of himself I am certain that his friends and supporters will chalk it up to OLD AGE DISGUSTING This same dealer has touted attracting new blood to this hobby for many years...... well this is sure the way NOT to achieve that.................Kevin welcome to the hobby and don't be dismayed my first "garbage purchase" was also an SS parts dagger many years ago from a longtime early member of the Max show go figure always happy to help cheers, Ryan

My 1st dagger purchase was a fake army of spanish origin, you live and learn.
buy some good books on the subject its money well spent

Update*

I decided that I should let everyone know I purchased this dagger from Tom Wittman. I'm not normally the kind of person who vents their frustration on the Internet but I gave Tom a chance to make things right with me but he decided to burn me instead.

After talking with several experienced members here I have been informed that this is not the first time nore am I the first beginner collector that Tom has scammed.

I believe Mr. Wittman knowingly took advantage of a beginner collector by selling me a parts dagger and claiming that it was original. Looking at the photos of this dagger posted above it is clear to see that Tom is a scammer who tried to chump me. I ended up returning the parts dagger that Tom misrepresented but he refused to pay the $70 postage/insurance For me to send his junk dagger back to him.

In truth I think Tom is more interested in making money off of these daggers than he is helping to further the hobby by introducing new people like myself. He was not at all interested in answering my questions and I could tell he just wanted to get off the phone with me.

The kicker is that Tom told me "If I paid return shipping on all the daggers people return to me I would go out of business"
Hello Tom!! If you are selling so much junk that you can't keep up with the volume or expense of all the returns it's time to hang it up buddy.

In closing I want to caution any new collectors and remind the more experienced among us that just because someone puts out a book and calls themselves an "expert" we all need to be on guard against scammers like Tom Wittman.

P.S. I was introduced to JR of www.medamilitaria.com by a longtime member here. I ended up purchasing a really nice dagger from him and could not be happier with it. He was knowledgable on the subject and most importantly he was willing to spend the time on the phone with me to make sure I purchased the correct dagger for me and my collection. Thank you JR!!!

Outstanding JR is top shelf glad that I could help sorry to hear about Tom W I had my own disappointment with him back in 1995!!!! He has done much for the "hobby" but I have always preferred Tom Johnson.. sad when profits over shadow morals glad you found a very decent SS dagger that you can be proud of welcome to the hobby, cheers Ryan S

Thanks for letting the community know.

JR Meda is indeed a top shelf dealer and great man to talk with.

Hmm why am i not surprised

I agree...I go with TJ instead of Wittmann but that's just a personal choice.

Can we see the new dagger?

I also have used JR of MedaMilitaria.....superb dealer.

I have a real hard time swallowing this story....why would TW jeopardize his reputation selling something like this? and it says clearly on his site..money back guarantee on all items.....sorry, not buying it. If it was not for Tom W, more than half of us would not be in this great hobby....I agree, chains are being yanked here.

TW tables had a couple very nice pieces as of noon yesterday- not sure if they are still there now. I didn't see the prices but I think there was a navy (?) sold then that was not a bad price I heard, maybe new owner will put up pix. Ron and Tom table must have been 6-10 very nice RAD hewers amazing collection of edged weapons out there at the max

Hi Marvin,
I'm glad you got this mess sorted out and had the tenacity to keep going and bag a quality SS dagger for your collection.

I would like to ask you if Tom Wittmann put this obviously bad dagger up on his website fully described, or did he offer it to you before it had gone up for public scrutiny on his site?

Regards

Will

Yeh well, you should for example take a look to one of the two SS daggers with exclamationpoint that he is selling. He describes it as it be a very nice and good dagger but it' s obvious bogus...selling it for 4995$....? C'mon man...

Here's the link: http://www.wwiidaggers.com/38893.htm

If this isn't a touched up dagger, I'm Santa Claus!
Does he describe it as such??? Nope...

For those of you that defend Tom W here are my two experiences in 1994 I sold two mint triple engraved German Weimar swords to Tom at the Max they were mint un-issued I needed the money for a show purchase and sold cheap to Tom He asked if I would accept a checque I said I needed to cash here and he said no problem his branch was the same one that was in the expo parking lot. He assured me that I wouldnt have a problem. The bank said they would not redeem/cash as he was out of state. They said Tom would have to attend to endorse. I took checque back to Tom and asked for his help. He said he was far too busy to go to parking lot branch......about 12 years ago I purchased RAD em from his offerring the throat had several gashes where someone had whacked it with the blade NOT in his description and Tom's descriptions were famous I settled for a few old offerrings as compensation never bought from him again I will stand in front of him and say these two experiences Always preferred Tom Johnson cheers Ryan

You're right Krikke. There are so many things wrong with that I don't know where to start.

It's a real shame. I bought several from TW in the past and I've been 80% happy. One or two items were original but touched up, but it took me a while to work this out. The majority of daggers I bought from him were honest pieces and properly described.

I still would like an answer to my question above. I can't believe he would have put this SS Dagger up on his site.

My two cents again and then I will leave it alone. TW has on his site, since Sept, several great looking SS daggers in the $3-3500 price range right now. My question is, after looking at those that were/are available then, why did you land on this one? TW's has probably the best pics on his site of his inventory and all the flaws on the dagger this guy bought would have clearly been seen....why pick it against the others? I'm not trying to be a cheerleader for Tom, but I think it's highly unfair what was said about him "scamming beginner collectors". I think the original purchaser has to take some responsibility here too. I don't know about you guys but $3100 is a helluva a lot of money for me and I would do my due diligence before dropping that chunk of change. Again, not a TW cheerleader, but as collectors, we owe a lot to him...and anybody that has dealt with him and his business, would agree with me. I just think before we judge somebody of this caliber a "crook", we should know all the facts.

Wow, someone is trying to sell that POS. for that much, times must be tough, not that tough, that link is to a trowel not an SS dagger.

During the last forum malfunction (hack?) many of the pictures from my original post were lost. I'm posting them here again for posterity.

x

I'm very surprised that TW would even sell a Dagger like this...Just look at the examples on his site.

Sepp

Thats the hard part ...is that there is so many things wrong with it..that I find it hard to believe that TW would post this forsale..unless marked down to $500. Just my thoughts

S M.....Post the sales receipt you have from TW for this dagger.

I'm disappointed in TW but not shocked.

Patrick,

I'm sorry you don't believe my story but its 100% true, I don't know why Mr. Wittman would do that to me either. I assume he saw an opportunity to unload a POS parts dagger on an unsuspecting beginner. I guess he dose not realize that in the modern internet age collectors can now communicate and share opinions and ideas in real time. His scams and dishonesty went undetected in the 70's and 80's when collectors were limited by only having catalogs.
Thankfully today we have wonderful forum communities where people like Mr. Wittman can be held to account for their dishonesty and misdoings.

As for your statement "If it was not for Tom W, more than half of us would not be in this great hobby..." The truth is Mr. Wittman's lack of integrity almost ran me out of this hobby before I even got started. I can only say that if it were not for JR at Meda Militaria I would not be in this great hobby...






Dave, you are correct it was "very obvious" but at the time I had NO EXPERIENCE. I was a complete beginner and was totally relying on what I thought was an honest and forthright dealer. I have since purchased every book on SS daggers I can find (including Wittman's fantastic books) and read and reread every post on this and other forums.





Will, I don't know if this dagger was ever listed on Mr. Wittman's site. This transaction was conducted via the phone. In my ignorance I purchased this dagger "sight unseen" with his assurances that it was a good "investment piece" I would be happy with.




I would truly like to thank all of the very kind and knowledgeable members on this site that took the time to help and guide me as I took my first steps into this field of collecting. To all of Tom's friends and supporters here that have called my integrity into question, I think its time you contact Mr. Wittman and get him to explain to the community why he felt it was ok to take advantage of a inexperienced beginner collector. I'm sure I wasn't the first or the last...




On a much happier note I would like to show off some of the wonderful daggers that I have been able to collect with JR's help. I can not say enough good things about JR and his son Kris at Meda Militaria. If anyone out there is considering entering into this hobby I would highly recommend contacting Meda Militaria. They are honest and good men who will take the time to help educate and guide you.



Group Marked Early SS Dagger by Herder -










Eickhorn M33 Featured in Tom Wittman's fantastic book "Exploring the Dress Daggers and Swords of the German SS" -










Werner Thoms Type A M36 SS No. 1232 -












Early SS B1 Chain Dagger -

And one more..


Ground Rohm SS Honor Dagger by Herder -

Marvin,

Please use photos not links. The FLIKR links from the last time you attacked TW disappeared.

Dave

Dave,

I'm dumbfounded that you would edit and remove the photos in my thread like this. I did not post "links" and you know it. Brickie even commented on the picture of the receipt for the dagger. Do me a favor next time you are working Wittman's table at MAX and ask him about the parts dagger he sold me.

Good day!

Dave,

I will email you the photos that have gone missing from this thread. Please post them.

Thank you very much!

HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!!!!

Dave,

Since you are unwilling to post the picture of the receipt for this parts dagger that Wittman sold me I will do it for you. Furthermore I am a paid member of this forum, I have not violated any of the rules here so please do not delete this photo again by calling it a "link".

I started this thread back in 2016 to alert the collecting community to the dishonest business practices of Thomas Wittmann. At the time of my first posting many forum members including Dave (the moderator) jumped to the defense of their buddy Tom and called my integrity into question. Well, it took Tom three years but he has finally relisted the parts dagger that he sold me (pictures attached). Its obvious from Tom's most recent pictures that he has since cleaned/polished the blade but he dose not disclose this little fact in his description.

Is the collecting community really going to give Thomas Wittmann a pass after taking advantage of a beginner collector?

Dave, I feel that you and Tom owe me an apology for the way you both have behaved.

In these two photos you can clearly see that Wittmann has since cleaned the blade but failed to disclose this fact in his most recent listing. Notice the dark spot closest to the bottom guard that is not present in his most recent listing.

Mr. Capito .. or if you prefer, Kevin,

To quote the response you got from Serge on WAF after posting this same topic http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1007527


"Another one of your old 'Dealer Bashing Threads' here, and you'll be looking for a new bashing site. Last Warning."

-Thread Closed."


Dave