#31035
03/05/2010 11:43 PM
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OP
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Quote Houston Coates:
"Just for the record this is not an official hanger for any German edged weapon. Probably for the Model 1902 US saber."
I copied this from the for sale forum so it could be commented upon. The 1902 pattern US saber has two rings as the seller of this hanger indicated so it's NOT an accessory for that sword or ANY other American sword I'm aware of..
Anyone else have another opinion as to the original use of this hanger? Most of us who have been at this for awhile know that there was apparentely latitude given in regards to hangers and,as far as I know, none of the political vertical dagger hangers were "official" either.
For the record: I bought this hanger as I like it whether it's SS or not. However; When it arrives I'll try it out with an SS Degen and see if it's practical in use.
Jim
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#31036
03/06/2010 01:20 AM
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Time ran out so I have to make a new post here. Here's the US sword hanger. Now go compare it to the one in the for sale section.
Jim
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#31037
03/06/2010 01:34 AM
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Houston is quite correct. This is not a WWII German sword hanger much less an SS hanger. This hanger was made in Germany, France, the US, etc. but is most closely associated with the US Model 1902 Army Officer Saber. Some were tarted up with fake SS and RZM markings years ago but were never regulation SS hangers.
Here is a period ad for the regulation US sword chains. You can see on the hangers listed in the for sale section where the regain hook has been removed from the top fitting.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31038
03/06/2010 01:37 AM
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There were variations of this type of US chain hanger including rigid links. One can buy these hangers all day long on ebay for around $20.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31039
03/06/2010 02:24 AM
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OP
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Orpo:
You could very well be right but I'm looking at what's hanging off the belt in your above illustration and it's clearly TWO chain hangers. That means there has to be some type of connector for suspension?
I will await further information/clarification here.
Jim
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#31040
03/06/2010 02:29 AM
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Posts: 826
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It is definitetly used for the 1902 pattern US sabre. I have had several of these in the past as I was a collector of these at one time. It is NOT for an SS sword.
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#31041
03/06/2010 02:46 AM
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OP
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Ok Ed et.al:
I am definitely NOT a collector of US swords. I own exactly three examples and they are all Navy's. Would you or anyone post an example of one of the US examples with TWO hangers like the one pictured above and perhaps we can put this to rest.
Jim
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#31042
03/06/2010 02:35 PM
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OP
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I've cancelled this transaction based upon what's been posted here. However: I want to make it clear that I DON'T think there has been any attempt on the part of the seller to mislead anyone.
I'd still like to see a complete hanger like the one pictured above.
Jim
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#31043
03/06/2010 10:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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Hello I feel a little fooled by some more advenced person in this hobby  . Tell me please if this hanger pictured here is also 1902 sword hanger ? 6.jpg (108.03 KB, 523 downloads)
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#31044
03/07/2010 02:56 AM
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Gottleib,
Yes, the sword hanger (chain) you show is also a US hanger for the US Model 1902 Army Officer Sabre. To be correct some of these were made in Germany and exported and can be seen in the Eickhorn export catalogs but they were not worn by German Officers with German swords.
Jim,
The US leather hangers with two leather straps were worn before the adoption of the chain hanger. There are several styles that can be found in both brown and black leather as well as bullion faced straps that were worn with the bullion belt for full dress with the blue uniform. The brown leather and the chain hangers were worn with the khaki uniform while black straps were worn for "undress".
Here is a set of the early leather hangers shown in the catalog.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31045
03/07/2010 03:01 AM
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Here is a slightly later set of the bullion faced hangers for wear with the bullion belt. This one is red piped for US Artillery Officers and matches the red stripes in the Artillery Officer bullion belt worn for full dress with the blue uniform. You can also find these with other color piping for Cavalry, Infantry, etc. There were also distinctive all bullion hangers for S&F rank officers as well as distinctive General officer hangers.
The Model 1902 US Army Officer Sabre has been worn for over 100 years and several sets of hangers have been in use over that period of time.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31046
03/07/2010 04:04 PM
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The timing for this question is perfect since I had a display of twenty-two presentations and variations of the US Model 1902 Army Officer Sabre at a museum this weekend. You may be able to see that each of the uniforms in the photograph have a variaton of this chain hanger attached to their Sam Browne belt. Other hangers for this sword were also on display.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31047
03/07/2010 04:07 PM
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Well... here is a better shot of the chain hanger in wear on a Philippine Constabulary uniform. At this time (1940s) the Philippines were a US Commonwealth.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31048
03/08/2010 01:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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This chain hanger was made to carry the 1902 US saber in the "regained position" The top ring was inserted in the hook and the lower ring received the chain. The example illustrated for sale on GDC has had the retaining hook removed at some time. You can see the hole where it was.
Thanks to Orpo for going to all the trouble to explain and illustrate.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#31049
03/08/2010 06:47 PM
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OP
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I was asked to post the following by Frederick Stephens who was having problems getting the image online. Jim Gentlemen, For your further interest, the WKC company in their export catalogue for The Netherlands and her Colonies (May, 1935), features an example of this chain hanger. It is listed as stock number 8333 Sabelkette ("Sabre-chain"). I do not believe that it was manufactured exclusively for The Netherlands, or even that WKC was the sole manufacturer. In the inter-war period this style of hanger could well have been utilized by a number of nations, as well as those German States that maintained their own regional sword patterns (Hesse, Baden, Thuringen etc.) As such, it is absurd to state that the chain could never have been used by some members of the early SS, albeit semi-officially. Members of the organisation have been noted - in early days - bearing a variety of dress weapons, to include Imperial pieces, as well as the known variations of the SS Sabre. All this prior to the adoption of the definitive SS Degen and the appropriate accoutrements. FJS 
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#31050
03/08/2010 08:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
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Could have, might have, I believe, possibly. All this subjective jazz from someone who DEMANDS absolute, clear cut BLOOD evidence from others. Come on Fred. Play by your own rules. Talk about absurd--
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#31051
03/08/2010 09:08 PM
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OP
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Trying to look at this objectively a couple of things come to mind:
Where are the cloth hangers that are supposed to go with this chain for a 1902 pattern US sword?
Why is the hanger illustrated next to a Police sword with only one scabbard ring if it wern't meant to be used in this manner?
Please note that the sword is catalogue # 8332 and the hanger is # 8333. This to me is a fairly strong implication that they were designed to go together.
Jim
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#31052
03/08/2010 09:54 PM
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Jim,
Please look at my original statement that these hangers could also be found in Eickhorn's export catalogs. They are shown as Nr.1448b in Eickhorn's Portugal catalog as well as Nr.1459 & Nr.320 in their South American catalogs as "sword chains". The Germans made them for export. I showed you the leather and the bullion hangers for the 1902 pattern US sword above as shown in the Ames and BB&B catalogs (there are no cloth US hangers). I have no doubt that the Netherlands also wore this chain with their police swords just as other countries did.
Frankly, one can buy whatever hanger or knot they want and put it on whichever sword they please but it does not make it correct by regulation. These sword chains were not regulation for the SS Degen. Can you or Fred show us these sword chains in a domestic WKC catalog next to an SS Degen?
The argument that Fred makes is that these chains could have been worn on "...early SS"... or "Hesse, Baden, Thuringen, etc." swords. This statement does not take into account that these particular SS and Polizei Degens were designed to eliminate these diverse regional swords and were not early inter-war introductions but late 1930s sword styles.
The various catalogs show that chains were worn by North and South Americans and Europeans. Where are the German domestic catalogs that show this chain hanger for the SS sword? Where are the period photographs of this chain hanger in wear by SS Officers?
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31053
03/08/2010 11:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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OP
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quote: The various catalogs show that chains were worn by North and South Americans and Europeans. Where are the German domestic catalogs that show this chain hanger for the SS sword? Where are the period photographs of this chain hanger in wear by SS Officers
Orpo: I appreciate you thoughts here. However your in a sense making the point. Without any evidence what were the official sword hangers(s) for SS and police swords? Yes we know from other sources that there were certain types of hangers used with these swords but were they the only ones? We know that there was apparentely great latitude allowed for hangers in other areas for edged weapons such as the SA. I will probably take some time to review period footage of SS swords in wear and see if I can come up with some further information on this subject. Jim
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#31055
03/11/2010 10:42 PM
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OP
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Guess no one told the owner this hanger was for export only!  Apparentely this one was supposed to go to France.  Jim
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#31056
03/12/2010 12:12 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,097 Likes: 99
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Jim,
Got a better shot? "france" is the last part of the stamp.
Dave
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#31057
03/12/2010 12:44 AM
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OP
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Dave:
This is the only other shot I have from the provided pictures. Look at the link itself and if there's something that needs to be pulledup we can work on it.
Jim
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#31058
03/12/2010 01:12 AM
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Yep, a US sword chain and frog on a German Army sword. The word "France" (in English) has been placed on the hanger in order to export it from France to the United States. This complies with the US import law that states the country of origin must be placed on the object in English. Just like "Made in Japan" or "Japan" is required to be placed on Japanese toys imported to the US. At least the seller of this rig states that the hanger is not correct for this sword.
Here is another example showing the russet leather frog (usually called a throg in the US).
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31059
03/12/2010 01:32 AM
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OP
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Ok Orpo: Let me see if I have this straight. The hanger was made in Germany and sent to France. It was subsequentially exported from France to The USA to adorn an American sword and marked "France" to comply with American import laws. So what's with the German sword as I doubt this was a "throw in". I'm really posting this in partial jest since most of your posts make a great deal of sense. Jim
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#31060
03/12/2010 03:31 AM
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NUTS I'm sure I could come up with a original invoice (from some Eickhorn files) showing theses being shipped with 1902 Army swords. I will have a look early next week. And we already know there were used on other swords. Regards: James
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#31061
03/12/2010 04:36 AM
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quote: Originally posted by jim m: Ok Orpo: Let me see if I have this straight. The hanger was made in Germany and sent to France. It was subsequentially exported from France to The USA to adorn an American sword and marked "France" to comply with American import laws. So what's with the German sword as I doubt this was a "throw in". Jim, It is a "throw in." The seller of this sword states the hanger does not go with the sword. Please read what he says in the link that you yourself provided. The hanger you show was not made in Germany or it would be marked "Germany" (in English) if exported to the US. It was made in France and exported from there to the United States. That is why it is marked "France" in English and not in the French language. I give up on trying to explain it I am afraid.  I'm really posting this in partial jest since most of your posts make a great deal of sense. Jim
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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#31062
03/12/2010 07:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
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This thread is getting more and more interesting.
Looks like there is no proof that this hangers were not used in german army or by SS officers :-).
For instance Polish officers after WWI attached to their swords various troddels (german, austrian, french)....
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#31063
03/12/2010 12:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
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OP
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Orpo:
I noticed that they'd said "non matching hanger" but they also said:
"Oneclickshooting is helping to liquidate a 50 + year personal collection, we are by no means experts on these items."
I suspect but can't prove their "non matching" description is predicated upon the hanger being marked "France"
I agree these hangers were used on American swords. However; How can we be so sure they wern't used for other applications as well?
Jim
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#31064
03/12/2010 02:57 PM
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.... Of course these were used with other swords... Is the one marked FRANCE correct for the German sword pictured???? NO it is not... They were married together... Were they used on other German made swords for export??? YES We know this through period catalogs... Were they used for the SS degan or other Third Reich swords??? maybe a few.. These hangers are not Rare at all and now to say these might be right, correct, standard for Third Reich swords . Buy it for what it is a (VERY COMMON) sword hanger... If you want one of these buy one , BUT don't spend much for it... Regards: James
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#31065
03/13/2010 09:31 PM
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OP
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Email from the seller of the above pictured sword on Gunbroker:
Jim
"I know next to nothing about these I just figured as it is a different color and marked France that it is not matching thanks"
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#31066
04/03/2010 07:48 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
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quote: Originally posted by jim m: quote: The various catalogs show that chains were worn by North and South Americans and Europeans. Where are the German domestic catalogs that show this chain hanger for the SS sword? Where are the period photographs of this chain hanger in wear by SS Officers
Orpo: I appreciate you thoughts here. However your in a sense making the point. Without any evidence what were the official sword hangers(s) for SS and police swords? Yes we know from other sources that there were certain types of hangers used with these swords but were they the only ones? We know that there was apparentely great latitude allowed for hangers in other areas for edged weapons such as the SA. I will probably take some time to review period footage of SS swords in wear and see if I can come up with some further information on this subject. Jim
Resurrecting this thread if I may.The official regulation sword hangers for the SS and Police (General rank and Officers) are shown in the beautiful but expensive pair on Gottlieb's site; originally from Art Sylvie, a bidding war, then to Barry Brown. Visit and read the text of the Probe tags. Wittman showed them. Regulations call for the police to wear leather in black or brown with green cloth backing for non-parade situations.I believe I mentioned the design in Johnson Vol.IV. I have also seen a long white leather carrying strap with Fischer/Berlin manufacturing stamp, but no police acceptance or SS acceptance. I had thought that perhaps it might be LSSAH parade dress. Look at the photos of the SS-Police degen in use. Vertical carry is the norm. what was the scabbard ring for? A vestige of earlier use? Or perhaps for attachment to saddle scabbard. That is where the latching strap would go.
"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
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#31067
04/03/2010 08:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Here are two photos of the white leather strap hanger I mentioned above. It have a retaining chain also. But no acceptance as I mentioned.
"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
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#31068
04/03/2010 08:13 AM
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The manufacturer's marking is visible here. But looking at the photo for the first time in awhile, I see the date is 1937. That would predate the introduction of the SS-Police sword and invalidate this as an SS-Police degen carrying strap.
"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
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#31069
04/03/2010 02:17 PM
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OP
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Appreciate the regulations clarification here as to the proscribed sword hangers to be used by the SS and the police.
However getting back to the start of this thread there is still no explaination as to why this hanger is pictured with a Dutch export sword, in the ad provided by F. Stephens(see above), if it was to be used with an American sword.
Jim
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#31070
04/03/2010 03:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Jim M. Not trying to state the obvious but, That might be correct hanger for the Dutch sword.
Regards: James
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#31071
04/03/2010 08:18 PM
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OP
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quote: Originally posted by DAMAST:
Jim M. Not trying to state the obvious but, That might be correct hanger for the Dutch sword.
Regards: James
Correct hanger? Sequential numbers for the sword and hanger? That's precisely my point. If this is the correct hanger for a Dutch sword and the correct hanger for a US sword what other swords was this the correct hanger for? Jim
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#31072
04/03/2010 09:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
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That would take a lot of research and I would think most of it is (lost to time) as they say . Jim M. if you really want to use one of these on a SS sword buy one but don't pay much as they are very common. That's what this really comes down to. People have told you here on the forum to the best of there knowledge what these hangers are and (commonly) used for. Regards: James
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#31073
04/03/2010 10:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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I know they are very scarce, but what would be the price of a brocade teardrop hanger? Thanks.
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#31074
04/03/2010 10:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Jim, sequential numbers of two items in a catalog is irrelevant. Look at an Assmann catalog and find two items of sequential numbers. Does it mean they belong together? Or where they simply associated together as common items, ie. shako part, buckles, swords and hangers?
I have never seen another General's hanger. It is beautiful, but not that beautiful $ wise. The hanger for the officer can be found. I have seen them in the $300 range or so.
But I am surprised no one corrected me, so I must correct myself. The two hangers are only valid for police officers wearing either the SS-Fuhrerdegen or the SS-Polizei Fuhrerdegen. I have to look around for the Trageschlauf f. Allegemeine SS Officers. Since the scabbard is the same, I would surmise the hanger would be a tear-drop shape, bullion on black leather. SS Allegemeine SS general ranks did not wear gold, so perhaps the hanger was good for both officers and general rank officers.
"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
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