UBB.threads

Hi All:

Some of you had seen the numbered SS dagger that was offered on eBay recently that was initially cancelled but was then allowed to be put back up. It wasn’t cheap, but I ended up purchasing it and I thought I would share why. The dagger is a ground Röhm by Eickhorn and has the number on the 25 931 stamped on the reverse of the lower crossguard. This SS Mann does not turn up in the SS-Dienstalterlistes, but I was able to identify him through my research as being a member of Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler. Over the years of my number research, I have examined several hundred numbered SS daggers. For the first time recently, I identified two daggers by an uncommon maker to men in the same SS-Standarte though their SS numbers were applied by different sets of numbering stamps. When I saw this ground Röhm, I was a bit stunned. It was numbered by the same stamps used on my unground Röhm! The numbers even appear to have been applied by the same hand as well. Both are Eickhorns, both have district numeral III (Berlin), and both belonged to men in LSSAH. Pictures of the full Röhm dagger that belonged to naughty nazi Erich Bauer can be seen here:

http://www.ssdaggers.com/dagger_stories

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

SS number 25 931 was assigned to SS-Oberscharführer Walter Nagel. Joining the SA on 21 December 1930, he was qualified to receive the SS-Ehrendolch since he had continuous membership after he joined the SS on 30 January 1932. He was in LSSAH from 1933-1937. In 1939 he was promoted to SS-Untersturmführer and served in several Waffen-SS Standartes where he received the EK II, Finnish Cross of Liberty 4th Class, Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen Bronze, and Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

This is one of his three photos of Nagel in his Waffen-SS uniform that was submitted with his Race & Settlement File. In 1943, he was busted from SS-Obersturmführer to SS Mann while serving in 9./SS Panzer Grenadier Division “Hohenstaufen,” but had the rank of SS-Untersturmführer restored in November 1944.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

In January 1945, he was killed in Hungary. He is buried in a marked grave (Block 2, Row 1, Grave 9) on the outskirts of Budapest. In my opinion, those numbered daggers that can be identified to specific individuals who have extensive records documenting their career, photos in their Allgemein-SS or Waffen-SS uniforms, combat service in Waffen-SS or Wehrmacht, killed or mortally wounded in action, and buried in an existing marked grave today are at the top of desirability. Very few of the numbered daggers I have researched fall into this exclusive category, but what a story these objects can tell.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

And they can provide us additional collateral evidence of human tragedy. This is Nagel’s wife Elisabeth from one of the photos submitted with her Race & Settlement File marriage application. She became a widow left with a son born in 1943 at the end of the war. Uncovering these kinds of stories is what makes all of my time and effort devoted to research and collecting worthwhile.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

FANTASTIC!

Very nice Ross thanks for sharing

Hey Ross any info on the Bauer guy? you spoiled us with Walter Nagels Profile. Best Larry

Hi Larry:

Erich Bauer transferred from the LSSAH to the SD in 1938 and his trail goes cold on this side of the pond after that for the war years. The death notice of someone with that name turns up in a SS veteran's magazine in the 1960s. The Allgemeine-SS men whose daggers I have identified but who did not become officers are very difficult to trace on this side of the pond for the war years. They may have generated a Race & Settlement File, but that only provides a snapshot of their SS career up to the time the application was submitted. For those with numbered SS daggers, these files usually date from the 1930s. Consequently those that can be traced for the 1940s are extra special. Walter Nagel generated a SS Officer File which is in the National Archives and includes his führerstammkarte which gives extensive documentation for the 1940s. His ranks, however, were not high enough to included in the SS-Dienstalterslistes for those years. Perhaps someday the WASt (http://www.dd-wast.de/) will become more open with access to their personnel records so the wartime service of these Allgemeine-SS men from the 1930s can be filled in.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

This is good stuff and I like reading about it, definitely enhances the hobby. Thanks Ross ,, Best Regards Larry

Great research, Ross!

Best greetings,

Herman

Hi All:
I just noticed that an unground Röhm SS dagger for sale on Tom Wittmann's website furthers this discussion. Note that it too has the district III mark (Berlin) and the SS number appears to be applied from the same numbering stamps and possibly by the same hand as the other two. Like the others, it is also an Eickhorn which supports the recent documentation I have found of quantities of daggers delivered to SS units being made from a specific manufacturer. Could this unground Röhm also have been issued to a member of LSSAH? Unfortunately, the identity of the SS Mann No. 45 584 currently remains elusive. I have the complete roster for the entire LSSAH taken in 1936 which includes SS numbers, but this member does not turn up there. But transfers occurred frequently so he have moved to another unit, resigned, etc. by then. I am not aware of any relations like this between SS daggers being possible until now. You can see Tom's dagger at:

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/31527.htm

Perhaps I will meet some of you at the SOS.

Happy hunting!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

My numbered SS Eickhorn Ehrendolches again for comparison.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HisoricGraphics.com

The WASt appears to be super sensitives in what information it gives out and to whom..most likely due to the fact that a fair number of men are still alive.

That pool is growing more shallow every year, however.

In light of the 160+ numbered SS daggers I have identified to SS men not in the SS-Dienstalterslistes over the past 4 years along with those daggers identified to men who are listed, we are at the dawn of a potentially new era of analysis of these artifacts. Relationships are beginning to emerge to help in their further interpretation. I had a similar experience in working on a project years ago on connecting Civil War revolvers and carbines to the men they were issued based on the serial numbers and unit records. In the case of daggers, it is becoming increasingly clear that SS units received bulk shipments from specific individual manufacturers, have identical "district numerals" and may be numbered in a similar manner. In the case of these three Eickhorn Röhm's above, here is a fourth connected to a SS Mann who served in LSSAH. And it is unground to boot! Same manufacturer, same district number (III believed to be Berlin as would be expected), and similar if not the same set of die stamp numbers used to mark it. In the case of this example below, the records of SS Mann No. 54 361, Horst Schürer, do not clearly indicate receipt of the Ehrendolch. However, these new discoveries certainly appear to support both the unit connection and the authenticity of its attribution to him. If anyone else out there in digital land has a numbered SS dagger connected to the LSSAH, how about posting some photos.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Here's another to add to the list of Ehrendolch shipped to LSSAH. The unground Röhm in the current Gottieb auction is also an Eickhorn, Roman numeral III with SS membership numbers stamped with apparently the same typeface as the others I noted earlier. Note the similarities of the 1, 3, 5 and especially the 4. With the further identification of numbered SS daggers, more conclusions can now be made about the makers of daggers that were received by specific SS units and how the daggers were numbered by that unit.

See it at:

http://www.cgmauctions.com/detail.asp?id=4031&n=SS-Dagger-with-Rhm-Inscription-Identified

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh

www.ssdaggers.com
www.ss-numbers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

These are nice pieces of history! I would love to own one of these numbers/Rohm daggers however my wallet is not always working with me! LOL.

Ross has really advanced the information on the numbering of SS Daggers. In my early work with the Dienstaltersliste I saw a trend that serial numbers in sometimes interrupted runs in each standarte could be used to draw a conclusion that almost always the assignment of numbers and, therefore, items occurred at a unit level by date of activity.
It was also interesting that some of the units had massive influx of professions at the same time, eg. police officers and lawyers. Much more to be learned from these entries IMO.

Just how the SS numbers were assigned or given out is still unknown, I think.

I doubt that there was one office where units would call to get a number for the latest recruit. Perhaps at the very start, but not for long as the SS grew in strength. It is more likely that new numbers were allocated in batches to regional levels. Or as Ron suggests, for a special group recruited as a en masse.