UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons European Edged Weapons Austrian Air Deffence Dagger

Any thoughts on the authenticity of this dagger? Looks OK to me when comparing it to one on Wittmann's site. If its OK then it was a steal at $284. The only red flag for me that there is a similar seller who is also in Poland, selling obvious fakes which were photographed in the same location as this one.



[img]http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Austrian-Air-Force-Army-Officer-Parade-dress-dagger-fighting-knife-1935[/img]

One undetailed pic is very few to judge a dagger but in my opinion (due to certain features which can be seen even in this pic) I think it is one of the modern fakes. To my best knowledge these are spread out frum hungary.
Real, perios air defense daggers of the first austrian republik are very rare.
Thgere is a similar air force dagger shown in several pics of this year´s MAX which is also a fake....

Here is one pic of an original air defence dagger.

Regards,

Beautiful dagger Wotan, the one from ebay is a pretty good fake but I can see differences from yours. Here is another pic.
[img]http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Austrian-Air-Force-Army-Officer-Parade-dress-dagger-fighting-knife-1935-/00/s/NTAwWDY2Nw==/z/rHwAAOxyfpJSVYBY/$T2eC16JHJHEFFlurN9pUBSVYB(2Tlg~~60_3.JPG?rt=nc[/img]

Trying again with a link.

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/Austrian-Air-Force-Army-Officer-Parade-dress-dagger-fighting-knife-1935-/271294612032?ViewItem=&item=271294612032&nma=true&si=lqphrZCs3jJwpqX2pIvwqCQREzE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557]

Here was the red flag from another seller but obviously photographed in the same location. A fake Russian Imperial dagger.

here are a few pics dagger which I have had .I believed originall
austrian collectors told me hat portopee looks like army not air force but no chance to confitrm this.Ted

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Hello zet,
The dagger is obviously a nice, worn original one with proper hangers for officer´s grade.
The portepee imho is no austrian one but looks like a romanian or bulgaria one (colors blue/white/red), at least no austrian one, there is a totally different cord strukture and construction. Although a certain gold colored portepee would be proper due to the officer´s rank hanger.
Regards,

zet, forgot to mention that your dagger is the airforce model - contrary to the air defense model shown by simlaw and myself.
Regards,

Please note, and Wotan can correct me if I am wrong, Original Austrian AF and Observer daggers do NOT have painted wood grips. The proper grip is shown on Zets dagger.

Any dagger offered with painted or otherwise covered wood grip is suspect.

Good topic

Jim

Ted, really nice example.
Wotan, thank you.

My friends I posted pics only to wide our knowledge.Ive had only one this dagger in my hand so hard to compare to other.Ive bought this from old german collector. Ive seen a lot fakes on czech militaria show in my opinion except grip hard to see diferences between fake and originall.The patina on fakes looks imitation.I say oncemore it is only abrevation copy is the best Ted

Jim W, generally you are right.
But the original grip is very brittle (you can see this also in zet´s pics) and did break sometimes even in the old times. I have seen once or twice (in the old times, 20 to 30 years ago, so LONG before these modern fakes did have their time of appearance!) an original austrian air force dagger with a (obviously replaced) painted wooden grip. So, even when these one or two mentioned grips were a -for me- sure replacement, you have also to judge the whole dagger concerning fake or not.
Regards,

A couple months ago I was offered this dagger, but unfortunately then I was not sure of its authenticity and the price 1500 levas / apr. 1100 Usd/ was beyond my possibilities.
Any comments and advice on the authenticity and the price of this dagger are welcome

kk

k1k

Is there a photo of the emblem?

From what I see, I like it. But I would like to hear from Wotan.

Please remember these were only issue for a year or two so they are extremely rare. So the price to me seems quite reasonable for an original.

It looks also for me good ,just try to change position of the grip to the crossguard and pommel ,in originall it is impossible because all were made as a set without suits to others.I disassemmbled once my dagger and it was hard to find proper position of the grip to get all parts together.I was afraid of breaking the grip.Maybe theory of replaced grip is right.I had one from old polish collection (remember Jim?) with home made plastic grip in brown color.My austrian friend told me that this kind of dagger was reproduced in early 50 also so really hard to say the judgment ,but the topic is very interesting.Ted

I remember that dagger Ted. I thought the dagger itself was original. I also do not think they were making reproductions of this in the 50's. It looked good and passed all the tests but the grip was a replacement.

Many of them still habve the broken grips like the one shown here.

The dagger shown by pesho for me has certain features which I know from originals and these features are quite different to these found on the modern fakes. It has high potential for beeing original.
The reproductions in the 50ies might have come from surplus parts of the ZEITLER firm and completed by the same firm.

My knowledge about original production is that the airforce dagger was made first and was produced for about two years. The air defence dagger did follow later and was produced only for shorter than a year. Therefore original air defence daggers are quite rare.

Regards,

Here is an austrian airforce dagger in wear. Naturally such a Studio photograph is also extremely rare.
Regards,

Jim, Zet and Wotan thank you very much for yours comments.

I have forgotten about this dagger, but the discussion about the color of the handle reminded me that I had seen some remains of something white marks on the handle.
Actually, neither I nor the owner are sure that this is the paint may be residue from polishing paste.
I asked the owner to dismantle again dirk to make and send me some pictures. Unfortunately I did not get a picture of the grip emblem, but I'm sure that the dagger had a grip emblem. I will ask him to send me a picture.

Therefore, this handle is made of wood. Is that the original handle or is it changed?

According to the owner only unoriginal thing is the ring for tying the portepee. The dagger arrived without this part and he ordered new ring, but without his words, it is obvious that this is a new .

If the grip is wood, it might be the exact dagger Ted and I were discussing.
I would like to see the emblem.

After several requests and reminders today I have received the pictures form the grip emblem

This is the Austrian Air Defense dagger. This is a nice looking dagger.

I suspect the price is good because of the grip. If Wotan likes it, I think that is good enough.

just my 2 cents the grip is flat? Ive nerver had observer dagger but all which I ve had pilot were convex.This one looks flat but just i said never had one in my hands.Ted

From the pics (there are several more up in this thread!) I do think the grip is not flat but proper shaped.
BUT I do not like the emblem in any way. And the Portepee holder (beneath the pommel) does not have the proper shape and seems to be from improper material, resembles copper.
Regards,

I got a few pictures and the following explanations:
- The seller maintains that the only replacement part is portepee holder and it’s made from bronze, not copper.
- In his words, this is the original emblem.

What could be the reasonable and honest price for this dagger, in this condition and remarks?

Previous owner of mine dagger told me the same as You see on pics it was made form a wire.If You look close it was very bad fitting.One of my friend from Austria states that this part was often broken.I do not like emblem but its just my point of view.To the price hard to say it in today market .All these copies were made bad atmosphere. Just my 2 cents Ted

I am deeply sorry that I did hold bronce for copper (did write RESEMBLES copper) judging a pic..........

Regards,

Votan,Jim, Zet thanks you for your coments and advices. I also did't like the emblem.
Although the seller reduced the price to 1000 levas/ App. $ 700, I couldn’t take a decision and refused the deal.

all depends on Your finance in my opinion if You can afford lets make Yourself happy for Christmas.Even if it will be a filler in collection.Merry Christmas to all of You .Ted

Dear Zet, I collect mainly Bulgarian dirks and had to decide Christmas dilemma:
whether this rare, but not in very good condition dagger or Bulgarian one ,also rare and perfect.
So, Austria versus Bulgaria - of course Bulgaria wins and on Monday and this beauty will complete my collection.

Dear mates ,Merry Christmas and Happy New year

Great looking dagger Pesho, what type of Bulgarian is it?

Merry Christmas, I wish Santa would bring me one also.

it looks like police officer with metal portopee.Quite rare I think so.Am I correct? I also too prefer polish dagger grom Santa but probably he forgot about me Im afraid.Hard to find nice dagger.Ted

This is Gendarmerie dagger. It’s almost identical to the police dagger, but there are some differences :
- the bottom of police dagger scabbard is engraved.
- they have different sizes and shapes of crossguards, handlle, pommels and portepees.

Was the handle of the Austrian Air Force dagger ever made of stone? I have been offered one and the seller claims it's original.