UBB.threads Forums General Interest Community Center Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF

Well, Mac, that would depend on where you went to kindergarten wouldn't it?

And if you think this is heavily policed, the owner of GDC always says that the Internet is a vast expanse with a place for everyone. Maybe yours is elsewhere?

Well Craig, hope you clear this up. Many legit questions have been brought up. I would think you will break your silence soon, this deals with your business after all Of course with the good , there will be the haters.......green with envy over the items you do get your hands on.

Wow, surprised ?, not in the least...the chickens come home to roost sooner than later. Dumbfounded by those that still defend...loyalty is an admirable quality but foolishness is not. Regards, Ryan S

Very admirable Ryan. Glad to see where you stand in my comment. So there is someone who casts stones.....

I Cast no stones...just Craig took me for $7000 and then bragged about how he "raped me" I stand by everything I state..it is a matter of record...he and I had done very good mutually rewarding business omn many occasions. I dealt with him first hand and I know how I was played and misled...I had drank the kool aid once as well my friend... I liked him and did not bash him and I defended him many times...I always gave the benefit of the doubt and my moniker was "He has always been good and fair with me"....it was not until I suffered it first hand. I had also forgiven him on two previous indiscretions...three strikes you are out..fool me once shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me...when you have the facts and know the history then you can comment recklessly feel free to email me at anytime for a frank and honest discussion rsellick@rogers.com I will extend you that...

Sorry for your loss. True, you have been collecting and in the hobby longer than I have. If I was taken for $7000, I would be furious! I posted a comment earlier in this thread, still waiting for any kind of answer. Many members talk about getting more, younger people interested in collecting. Obviously , it already has some serious hurdles for a new collector.......very expensive, the whole Nazi crap ( though I do know this site and it's collectors do not promote the Third Reich's ideology ) people tend to look at you weird when you tell them you enjoy the history and art of the SS. The point I'm trying to get across is, if there are individuals who choose to sell fakes, junk, including CG, then they do need to be pointed out. Defending Craig, nope, just thinking in this business where your word and trust matter, he would say something.

PLEASE, if you do care about the health of the hobby, and you go to this years SOS, let your fellow collector know a bad dealer. If they are allowed to sell "tables of crap" , we will have many more getting " taken" Uh-oh, not another hurdle.

The collecting fraternity is self protective and close knit...many collectors are fearful of saying something negative about a dealer even when they have a bad experience...also there are two sides to every story. I have been an active collector in Third Reich since 1982. I have, in the past 32 years sold a lot of things to many dealers and collectors, hundreds of items, some pretty top shelf. I have had zero complaints and zero returns. I have sold to many forum members. Although no one is perfect and even the best can be fooled from time to time it is how one reacts as a dealer to these "situations" and the customer service that matters. You live or die by your reputation in this hobby and at the end of the day, regardless of how many haters or lovers or detractors/supporters you might have, only you , the individual is responsible for his reputation...cheers and regards, Ryan

Ryan:

You are so right about everything that you say here.

Reputation is hard earned and needs to be protected every day. It is very easily lost. And, how one handles a large dollar dispute is what determines the character of a dealer. Small dollars are easy for anyone to resolve... but, the big ones?

All of these 'lifetime guarantees' are only as good as the word of the man who gave them. And, what happens to the guarantee when the dealer moves on or dies?

I believe that one reason that so many close ranks when a bad deal goes sour is that everyone sometimes deals with everyone else in this hobby and few people want to burn bridges because that could cost them a deal in the future. Many high end items are sold by a grouping of dealers (one knows a collector with deep pockets, another knows where a high end item is available, a third has a relationship with the owner of the high end item, etc, so they all get together and share in the profits). So, why tee off a potential money maker?

John

John, I couldn't agree with you more. regards, Ryan

Bottom line is there is no "TR Collecting Police Force" to impose any effective sanctions against crooked dealers. Almost all dealers of note have been involved in some scandals, some more than others - Craig seems to happen more than others only because he makes himself so visible and somewhat promotes the drama that eventually is turned against him. In that regards, maybe his "expulsion" from WAF will turn out to be a blessing for him. He won't be able to toot his own horn as he apparently craves to do, but he'll be able to fly under the radar more.
Still, only a certain % of collectors will be aware or care about his shenanigans, he will take it on the chin and keep on rolling until the next shady deal surfaces. So long as people continue to buy his wares, he's on top of the game ,,, And a certain small % that refuse to have any dealings with him at all is just collateral damage to a guy like that, part of doing business in the upper tiers of what can be a very shady racket.
Hell, look at Snyder, he has been pilloried and ridiculed, called out and slammed for years in the community, he keeps going happily along selling his Eva undies with no end in sight, and so long as a buck can be turned, he will continue to do so.

Sky,

The only TR Collecting Police Force are the collectors themselves. If they decide not to buy from someone that's it. But my observation is that despite the talk at the bar, the next day they buy from the guy who has what they like.

All else,

Craig has not signed on here since last August, so if you hoping for a defense, who knows.

Dave, Doug , etc. your all right..

They could be the biggest scumbag,,but IF they have what we're looking for we'll buy.. Such is the state of the hobby and one of the reasons why the younger guys aren't in to the hobby..

I personally have sworn off buying anything ever from a few dealers, Craig included after the HR scam, that was enough for me ,,, Then again, I am not much into the high end, but I have deleted all bookmarks to their sites and am never even slightly tempted to buy anything from them or even check their inventory. Also swore off one that gave me a ridiculously lowball offer for some items I had for sale, haven't so much as looked at his site in over 3 years.
Of course I am not going to cripple their business or even make a dent, its personal and thats that, they are not getting 1 red cent from me under any circumstances.

Far as Craig speaking up for himself, I have no preference. Maybe he had enough of that on WAF I don't know, I don't think GDC is a grand enough stage for him to make any pronouncements anymore, but if he does feel like chiming in I'm all ears.

Again, I agree. There are a very few dealers I will not patronize.

Personal preference and it may not do any god, but there you are.

The dealers like Craig don't care about beginner or mid-range collectors like you. They are looking for the Big Buck, well healed, deep pocket collector. who will buy their humped up sleds for the big ticket. They know that the courts combined with the stigma of collecting 'Nazi items' will work against the buyer should he want to take legal action. So the Deep Pockets newbie trusting buyer just eats it and stays quiet and they move on, or in many cases, quits the hobby.

As far as self policing; sure wish that was possible, but it's not. Bob Johnson still sells his SS wedding rings and Himmler chairs. Charley Snyder (as mentioned earlier), a whole host of fakes. However, the last auction of Craig's came up there was a thread on WAF mentioning the two scarce daggers being auctioned, the SS Full Rohm and a SA high leader. Both of them IMO ( and other knowledgeable veteran collectors), were humped-up sleds. I knew it, others knew it, but did we post any comment on the thread? -NO. And neither do the well known good dealers who see it. why? because it's just not good for business.

On these high end humpers, they are looking to get Big Dollars from the guys who have the big dollars, but don't have the big knowledge. So a SA High leader goes for $41,000, with a blade that was acid dipped, gold re-gilded, leather replaced (Craig said it was original), with what looked like a 'Manion's chain' that had fresh brass braising on the link connectors.
Now I was not the only one that saw that, yet nobody made a comment out in the open. In private, we all agreed. So that's how it is now with this hobby.
If you have serious money to spend on 'high end', you better have a knowledgeable friend who will guide you, or you may very well end up with a super collection of 'parts', worth a fraction of what you paid and no one to turn to when you see the light.

-serge-

Serge,
Great synopsis. I am not a dealer. I am strictly a collector that on occasion sells pieces to high-grade my collection. I do on rare occasions buy a high end item and frankly, high end is in the eye of the beholder. If I have the scrimp and save to purchase it, it is high end for me. When I do, I am nervous and cautious but try to do all of my homework first. However, I admit that in the end, it is a leap of faith based on the reputation of the dealer and the relationship I have built with them over the years.

I buy mostly from dealers as they provide a service to me. I do not have the time in my career to scour the planet for hard to locate items. I do what I can, when I can and pulling a piece "out of the woodwork" is a thrill that we all love. I have been sold a reproduction by a well known dealer before. Was it deliberate, no. We all make mistakes. The fact that the piece was a forgery only became documented well after I purchased it. Would I approach the dealer about it? No. It was under $500. He sold it to me in good faith and I have had a great relationship with the dealer with many other transactions over the years.

One observation is that all dealers are critical of one another over details from time to time. I think this is healthy as it is not meant to be mean spirited but rather a debate in the vagaries of this hobby. However, there are a few dealers (some in your the list above) that even a collector of relatively average experience can observe that they consistently have bad items for sale. If they do this with relatively common items you can bet very rare items are likely spurious. I am amazed at how openly brazen one is in particular. Almost criminal. These are the dealers that poison the hobby for new comers.

Then there are the ones you mention that deal in the exotic and ultra rare. Well, most of the time the folks that collect in these areas can afford to take a hit financially. It is just another world compared to the average guy. It is a world fraught with higher risk and like gambling, the odds are in the house's favor. This is entertainment and not investing. I would also caution anyone who collects in this arena to secure their financial well being in retirement. These items are just not fungible and a poor strategy.

IMO, the reason dealers don't call out the blatantly bad ones is the liability that goes with it. Also, what goes around comes around. Collectors do communicate and caution other collectors. But dealers, not so much. To clean this hobby up is a risky game for dealers that rely on the hobby for their livelihood.

Quote from Serge
"As far as self policing; sure wish that was possible, but it's not. Bob Johnson still sells his SS wedding rings and Himmler chairs. Charley Snyder (as mentioned earlier), a whole host of fakes. However, the last auction of Craig's came up there was a thread on WAF mentioning the two scarce daggers being auctioned, the SS Full Rohm and a SA high leader. Both of them IMO ( and other knowledgeable veteran collectors), were humped-up sleds. I knew it, others knew it, but did we post any comment on the thread? -NO. And neither do the well known good dealers who see it. why? [i]because it's just not good for business.
Now I was not the only one that saw that, yet nobody made a comment out in the open. In private, we all agreed.
[/quote]

And that is the problem today. Folks who know and should have known, HAVE to speak up when something is wrong! If you have a good ethical background and conduct your business honestly, then you are doing yourself good and the collecting community a serivce. By not commenting or bringing it up only makes you look camplacence in the shady business practices. Being honest will alway show you in a positive light.
I think that knowing a piece is bad or questional and not bring it up is really no better than offering it yourself.
Your businesses will never hurt from being honest!
I think the day of just turning away and hoping it goes away is and will be over. Ron

And the winner is Ron ( Tanker). That last paragraph of your comment is spot on! The members that are dealers really need to understand in order for this hobby to continue and grow, is to have honest people that will stand up and say something about fakes and other questionable items. Serge, if you think not commenting about a bogus item and bringing it to light is bad for business, how do you think new collectors are going to feel about the whole hobby environment. This is going to make it very difficult to bring in new collectors. Not only do you have to worry about fakes, but now you have to worry about the people that deal them knowing their fakes and nobody saying anything about it. Who can anybody trust? As I see it, some third Reich items will soon be easy to forge. Unless you can do some carbon dating, it's going to fool many people. I'm going to the SOS. as of right now, I think there's maybe only two guys that I MIGHT purchase anything from. Because I do enjoy the hobby, as for the rest of the dealers, I'm coming to look at all your collections. I will give you credit, you guys have some great stuff let it be fake or for real. And believe me, I'm not the only one that feels this way. I would like to see this hobby continue on and grow. But, like Tanker said "I think that knowing a piece is bad or questional and not bring it up is really no better than offering it yourself.
Your businesses will never hurt from being honest!
I think the day of just turning away and hoping it goes away is and will be over."

A small reminder of a couple of things:

1. Please leave out the insults. They add nothing.

2. Keep in mind that you are legally responsible for what you post.

Dave

First, Everybody makes mistakes, that's a given. Who do you trust? well, you first start by avoiding the names that are in constant controversy and gravitate toward the guys that are recommended by your fellow collectors.
Second, you buy books to learn and compare. (actually this should be first). There is a great number of reference material today then when I started. (Col. James Atwood's dagger book was considered The Bible at the time.) Books are your friends.

Now, I'm going to mention something from experience that may not sit too well with some, but it's the way I see it.
Many newer collectors today don't want to buy books. They feel they don't need it, or they are outdated. They would rather constantly ask basic questions on originality on forums such as this with; 'Hey Guys, guys what do you think about this one, is it original?' But to spend $150. on a outstanding SS dagger book - Nah...I'll just ask the guys on the forum.

Then you go to shows and look at many examples as possible. Develop friends it the hobby, but don't burn them out.

Spending your money should be last. You will find the hobby much more enjoyable when you really know what your buying and the uniqueness of the artifact.



New collectors have better learn the real world of the hobby environment. Anyone who has been in the hobby and on the forums a number of years, and has been vocal about exposing the 'humpers', will tell you how unrewarding that experience is. I been there , I know.
First off, your giving an opinion, which you believe is truthful on some dealers $41,000 dagger who prides himself on writing $250,000 checks. Your giving a 'thumbs down' to it on the open to potential buyer who you don't know from Adam. You think that if the buyer listens to that 'deal killing opinion' that the seller won't be upset? Oh you can say 'who cares- IT'S THE TRUTH !. No, it's not, it's just a opinion, usually taken from a photo.
Besides, at times a newbie will reach out in a PM and ask 'what I think'. well, if I don't like it, guess what's the first question that comes from the seller he's dealing with?- 'Who told you that?'
And so, you get another seller that you probably know mad at you, as you killed his deal. Then, he doesn't forget that, and may repay you in kind for a item your later selling. all that for some guy you hardly know?
You can also be opening yourself up to hiring a lawyer to do some reply letters on your behalf. See Dave's note;

Dave is right about that.

So, my point is; DO YOU want to possibly bring that upon yourself to some guy you don't even know? If so, OK, I'm proud of anyone who will take on the bad apples of the hobby. However, be aware of what can be awaiting a whistle blower who does expose's on a 'Mega-Dealer'.

For me, I'm done trying to educate newbies on 'How to tell a Fake Rohm dedication from authentic'. Try that one sometime...Oh, they will ask it, and there are some here who think you should do it.

-serge-

True, everbody makes mistakes. The problem is when it continues into a trend.
When I started collecting (as with a lot of other collectors here), we did not have the luxury of the internet to vet a piece. Yes, we has soem books, but mostly relied on the honesty of fellow collectors.
Books were written and some have been identified as having bad pieces referenced a original pieces. Now, if a collector is usign those references to collect, tehn that is not helping them.
My first venture into collecting an SS dagger (before the books/internet) only brought me heartache. Fortunately, Gailen David steped forward and help me out with knowledge. Some of the "big time" collectors didn't have the time to help a new collector.
So, I guess what I am saying, regardless of the books or info available today, we should share our knowledge and help the hobby get stonger and grow, not hide our knowledge thinking that if we share, the competitors will get ahead. Ron

I can only agree 100% with Serge, every time I've tried to help a newbie or condemned a well known dealer, I got burned by his fan club. I therefore stay quiet as it serves little purpose, sad but true. As Serge said, do your homework first, buy books, read old threads on subjects that do interest you and ask meaningful questions but the most important thing is the following........trust no one but yourself.

Almost forgot, people tend to also have extreme short memories, I can easily list here a few names from highly respected dealer/collector on this forum and yet, the same people have been proven to be involved in fraudulent business practices.

Interesting comments from seasoned collectors ,,Myself, I am on the low/mid range to stay, and I like it that way. In fact the highest end TR item I have ever bought was right here from Pat, that stunning tiger striped SA. So that shows you that you don't necessarily drop $25K to get something truly unique and jaw dropping, even among seasoned collectors. But when it comes to personality items connected to high TR leaders, the sky is the limit and I am just an interested observer, and what happens there can trickle down to the low range too.

Fact seems to be in this case that there initially was no scandal, not at all. It looked like Craig got burned but just had a hard time accepting it, which is understandable.
You see threads all the time with guys asking for opinions on controversial items, then when the consencious is negative they take it personal, and refuse to believe anything other than their item is good ,,, And if anyone thinks otherwise, they will never prove it conclusively 100% - Kinda makes you wonder why they seek opinions in the first place if they are just going to reject out of hand anything that doesn't align with their own. Hindenburg badges, Olympic medals, sniper patches ect are notorious for this kind of thing. Guys know going in that their odds are slim, but they think they have somehow cracked the holy grail with an undocumented prototype find of a lifetime.

Anyhow, the controversy which is the subject of this thread started with Craig point blank refusing to name the source of the documents, then possibly and vindictively having a hand in tampering with wikipedia entries to make himself look like the salt of the earth and one of his "detractors" as a detestable fraud. He has yet, so far as I'm aware, to address these topics, until he does his name is going to be Mud for many, and deservingly so.

Hey Doug,

Hope you are still enjoying that wonderful Tiger stripped SA dagger ?

Nope, enjoyed it for quite a few years but it moved on into good hands to the Netherlands, back in Europa !

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/sa-dienstd...694/#post915306

My goodness, what a beauty, didn't remembered being so nice, why in the world did I sell it ?

Is there any reason as to why the wood is tiger striped? Was this just the wood or did it have a special purpose?

Kyle,
No special purpose IMO. Certain woods develop a grain in certain circumstances that develop this attractive pattern. Maple is the most common but you can find it in walnut, koa, coco bolo, mahogany. I don't believe wood choice was ever an added cost option in the period that I am aware of like one has today with guitars for example.
Rick

I knew instantly I'd regret it and I did, but all things have their time to go, illustrating the fact that we are not actual owners but rather care takers. It has traveled [that I know of]from Germany to Canada to USA to Netherlands, its travels are not over.
I can tell you this, it held its value. I bought it what 5 to 7 years ago when the market was still a bit inflated and I sold it months ago in a flat market for more than I paid. Beauties like this always hold and increase their value ,, And though my collecting motivation is rarely ever profit, thats always good to know.
Here is a thread I started here about it
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=230756&page=1

[There are those who propose that the stripes are man made, I've so far found their arguments unconvincing].

Doug,
I don't even collect SA's and I will tell you, I would have strayed in a heartbeat to get that one. Name your price. A cut above the rest of the herd.
Another example; always buy the top 20%. They always hold their value and you never have to make excuses. Better to have a few really nice ones that a massive collection of the ordinary.

We may want to start a separate thread on the SA as it is getting a little off topic. Don't want the original topic to fade away into an SA review. Ron

"However, be aware of what can be awaiting a whistle blower who does expose's on a 'Mega-Dealer'."

Ha, ha,,your kidding with that comment right?!

Indeed Tanker but don't you think we have trashed CG enough ( I am not a fan of his either)? I have posted a number of items scattered throughout the forum over the last week yet if one were to look at the topic with the most hits they are on this one. Time to move on lest we look like a bunch of gossiping hens.
Can we get back to something positive?
Rick

I actually had it here for months and let the sales ad lapse, I was at $1,200 I believe and wasn't going to drop it. Tried it again half a year later and after a few weeks someone finally pulled the trigger and bought it... So it was available for quite some time. I could have done multiple reductions down to $800 or so and it would have sold in a flash, but I said "no reductions" and I meant it. Obviously probably could have gotten more. [I don't know if Pat remembers, I think I paid $900 or 1K for it myself, so wasn't exactly a windfall profit].



Well, we've got a ways to go to catch up to the 38 page monstrosity at WAF, if it is straying off topic at least its in a good direction, there are many good insights from some seasoned collectors not often discussed. Post I made which started the SA discussion was meant to veer it back on topic ,,, I see your point, but very rarely will a multi page thread stay exclusively on topic, just never happens.
Anyhow, unless someone has some specific, relevant insights into Craigs dealings and/or has any new info on this latest fiasco, there is probably not a whole lot more than can be added to it.

True,the intent was never to trash a person but to bring light to questionable business practices. In this case it happens to be CG.
As to continuing the thread, not much more can be added at this time. If more info becomes available, then we can add it.
I thought if there was to be a discussion on the nice SA , it would be better served on its own and not be attached to this mess.
Ron

Gaspare, I wish I was, but I'm dead serious.
Textbook case in point:
There was an author (out of England, I believe) who was writing a book about all the scams in the militaria hobby over the decades. He was naming names, dates, the whole bit. It was going to be THE BIG revelation of how the hobby really works with some of the biggest, most respected, (and many not so respected) dealers in the hobby-past and present.
He and a partner also started a militaria forum called 'Dolos'. -exposing the Fakes-

Well they didn't last long. The author was warned of a pending suit if the book was released. It never saw the day of light. And the Dolos site was also shorty shut down.
Although the owners deny it was due to 'lawyers', I heard it was for exactly that reason.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Flive.autographmagazine.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fdolos-project-militaria-blog-refocuses-on-it-s-main-intent-maybe&ei=gnsBU4nMLY6IogSV44G4Dg&usg=AFQjCNEQH0EEwRSQiyn5oqPsZNx_utLRww&bvm=bv.61535280,d.cGU

-Serge

Ron, I don't see anyone thrashing. what's thrashing?
Like Craig losing his tables at the SOS?
Is that news worthy? I don't know, however some would think so. I find it .....

Read Stratocaster3's post (#294846). I was responding to him. Ron

Got it. Thanks.

Serge,, if they're a thief and you can prove it with a case or 2 then state it. They are people like everyone else. Just because they might have Hitlers shirt, or some diamond studded badges etc. means nothing. None of them are better than you, I , and the rest of us....
Actually,,when there is a dealer that has sold fakes, sold pieces knowing they're fake [proven] then its a dis service not to let your fellow collectors know..