UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Gocernment Official Dagger

Here is my Government Official Dagger. When I first started collecting, this was a dagger I thought I would never own because of the cost. I picked this up at a reasonable price and would consider it in very good condition except for the greying on the blade. I believe it to have 99% of the original lacquer in tact and only a few carry dings on the back left side of the eagles head. This is an Eickhorn and I have read this is an early one having the flat blade screwdriver type pommel nut. This one happens to be number 36 off the Eickhorn production line as all the parts are individually numbered. In my opinion I think these are one of the most beautiful daggers produced in the Third Reich.

Rich

Rich- Have to agree with you they are beauties - Nice dagger now you need the hangers & portepee-

I'm still looking to find one of these that I can examine 'in-hand'. However I don't want you to be upset but there is a good chance that you have a current repro.
These slot tang screw versions have been poping up from somewhere in the 'East Block' I believe.

When compared to a real Eickhorn this one doesn't make it.
Look at the fit and finish of the grip plates compared to another Eickhorn G.O. Look at the shape. Repop has a pot belly on the eagle.
I beleieve there is another member here that got tagged with several of these 'slot tang GO's'.

-serge-

I don't see smth wrong with this.
For sure it's better to see it being taking apart by the correct tool.
You can check the fit, etc. at some reliable dealers e-stores. Here are some pics from Tom.

This shown dagger in question is for me a very astonishing dagger. On one side there are several features (like eg. the material and appearance of the gripplates) i would expect only on original daggers and I do not think tey are fakable today, on the other hand it has certain features I do not know on doubtless original daggers l(e.g. like the overall remarkable rough appearance contrary to the very smooth appearance of doubtless original daggers).
I don´t think the dagger in question might be compared with the highly polished exemplares of TTW.
I did some quick photographs to my EICKHORN gov with REALLY lot of original laquered parts - which now still show frossted silvering.
It is also to mention that my dagger has a one digit (!) number and has the common "two holes" pommel screw.
Unfortunately my photographing skills are not the best.
As ever, an in hand inspection of a dagger is the best but the one shown by Pitbull63 has a high chance of beeing a high class fake.
Regards,

Wotan - please look carefuly at your scab and compare it to the Pitbull63's.
Both have the same ... Aren't they? IMO that's enough to say that both are good. Or no good..., but again - both.

It is in my opinion that when it comes to this kind of situation I like to use just plain common sense. I would think if a manufacturer went through the trouble of either making dies or finding the original dies, and reproducing a quality item, why then after going through all the trouble to make it look as perfect as possible, why then would they not put the spanner pommel nut on top. I have a little bit of a machining background...not too easy to make dies and for sure not cheap, like I said if it were made to deceive that would be a quick give away. Also the spanner nut would be easier to manufacture than a slotted nut.
I'm willing to take this dagger apart to prove any point needed to be made but the wood is a little on the brittle side however it looks just like this one, this one having the spanner nut. Notice how they split the numbers on each side of the crossguard blade hole, mine is also the same way.
http://www.simplydaggers.co.uk/user/image/go2.jpg

Here is another one.

http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/inspect.asp?Item=2178&Filter=Archive

Rich

I do see what you guy are talking about when it comes to the fit between the simulated mother of pearl and the backstrap. I'm thinking the mother of pearl at one time came loose and was glued on too far to the one side. Looks like I'm going to take this dagger apart again and take some good photos so we can come up with an educated answer as apposed to speculation.

Stay tuned

Rich

@ anlvd2: A scabbard imo is not deciding as an original sacabbard might have been added to a fake dagger. And you can be sure, mine is totally (the whole dagger) original .
This leads us to my special suspicion that it might be a parts dagger, parts of original dagger(s), parts reproduced. Due to what I have seen on german shows, that our "brothers from the east" buy totally wrack daggers for very cheap prices. I cannot imagine that these are for their personal collctions. But most likely are part depots for to complet daggers.
These "parts" daggers are not easy to detect as on one side original parts are used and on the other side parts are very skillfully and with "old methods" manifactured. We also should not forget that in the eastern countries costs for qualified work are still low and "old" materials and old knowledge of manufacturing are still around.
Although I am stricktly against disassambling daggers, especially those fragile gov daggers, I am looking forward to certain pics when Pitbull63 as owner is willing to disamble it.
There are also still good chances that it is an original one.
Regards,

Dear Wotan,
Thanks that you got my idea about the scabs.
Just for your understanding. I have heard a lot about "eastern block" faked SS chaines, daggers, etc. But almost never seen a german dagger made there. All poor or well made fakes were made in Germany, Spain, States(?). Enough to say that the biggest market of fakes are German Messas. I've seen that myself. I also think that wrack daggers are sold to the east for spare parts, because the wast majority of booty items were denazified. Eagles, pomels, CG, etc.
Secondly, costs for realy qualified work are NOT still low. Forget about it.
And finally, the demand on original russian edges weapons is higher than on german ones.
BTW russian items are more easy to reproduce than germans. Some Franch or German models could be used for main parts. But most fakes are made in China.
Be very attantive with rumors.
Hope it'll help.
Collecting since 1993.
Warm Regards,

Gentleman,
Here are the pictures as stated. I for one am 99.999% sure this is an original, period, WWII Third Reich Government Official Dagger.(not a parts dagger either) I truly didn't think this thread would turn into weather or not this dagger was authentic, there was never a question in my mind. I only posted it because it was one of my finer pieces in my collection. The only thing missing from the pictures is the black crumbs, dirt, and crap that falls out when you open these 70 year old pieces.(I cleaned the dust and fine dirt out the first time I opened it) All the numbers are all in the right places thou some are hard to see due to the age and dirt inside. Sorry,I won't be cleaning the inside...that's where I draw the line. The "36" on the backstrap is faint due to dirt, "36" on the blade tang is there at the proper angle, hard to see but you can see it, the "36" on the wood is there but very hard to see without an eye loupe. Actually it's put back together and fits a little better. When I got this dagger, the first thing I did was turn the pommel nut out one full turn. The reason for this was, here in the eastern side of PA. we have summers with 100% humidity and winters that are dry. The Government dagger having a wooden base handle will expand and contract. The last thing I wanted was to get this dagger out after a few years and find that the simulated mother of pearl handle cracked. When I talked to Tom Johnson about this dagger he said all the pieses are hard to find but you never want to crack the handle. So everybody please cast your vote, I would love to hear what everyone is thinking.

Rich

I know nothing about these GOs but if it were fake it looks like someone went to an awful lot of trouble to duplicate such intricasies, and especially the wood on the grip!! Great thread Rich!! Really curious to hear others opinions also on these recent posted photos.

Wotan can you show a close up of your furrel? The one on Rich's G.O. has caught my eye and I want to see if the spacing on your Eickhorn is similar to mine.

-serge-





Also, I have not seen such a narrow 'field' on the blade as on Rich's G.O. here's what mine looks like.
Anyone else got a Eickhorn G.O. ?

Here you go:
You may also check TW book on Heer daggers. There are some examples you are looking for. Page 200 will help.

Here are mine...


John

I am not a "big" GO collector, in fact I have none…
In any case, I have "studied up" and I believe this dagger to be original.

The issue here is the age old "original TR" vs. "textbook" issue. In my humble opinion.

The idea of something being original to the TR period is the REAL issue. A piece being "100% textbook" is a "sub-category" of original TR pieces.
I.E. all "100% textbook" pieces are from the TR period, but not all TR period pieces are 100% textbook.

I think that this piece falls into the: original TR period dagger which is not completely textbook.

The gap between "TR original" and "100% textbook" is the grey area of this hobby which causes the types of discussions that we have here.

I guess this is a very long way of saying; I like the dagger, but I understand if not everyone does.

All the best and good hunting,
Johnny

Johnny V.-
I can't say it is NOT "100% textbook". The narrow and let's say "middle" 'field' is shown. The onle thing I can't see definetly are the ferrel grooves at Pitbull63's dagger.

Well Gentleman,
I've just been through every major dealer site that had Government daggers that I could find and through Tom Johnson's books. I see differences in furrel grooves.
I.E. Depth of the grooves, center section size, outer section size.
Correct me if I'm wrong as I know you will, It is to my understanding that these grooves and also the grooves on the backstrap wrapping around the eagles head were hand done.
I just looked at mine with an eye loupe and they "APPEAR" to be done with a "V" groove tool. The pictures don't show it too well due to all the original lacquar in them.
Regards
Rich

I met both. Hand made more often.

@ Pitbull63, first let me say that I am sorry that the thread took a totally other direction for you than you have had intended.
Therefore I will start a special pm contact with you.

Here are requested pics, first a better pic of the ferrule (imo they are serial produced and hand finished due to the welding process of the cut.
also shown is the blade segment with the trademark.
I furthermore show again a hopefully sharper pic of the crossguard.
Best regards,

Hi Wotan,
Not a problem. You see all my pictures, I would like to hear your opinion. I can see that my grip plates don't fit perfectly. It is my opinion that the grip plates moved toward the belly side a little leaving a little gap on the backstrap side. You can see plain as day from the pictures that the inside of my dagger was wet at one time or another possibly causing that to happen. I also talked to Mike (General Manager)at Johnson Reference Books today and was told that the furrel grooves are indeed hand cut and was also told no two are perfectly alike. This dagger came from a vet and was also told the vet was on the board of the American Blade Collectors Association. Anyway there is no doubt in my mind when it comes to the authenticity of this dagger. I'm done beating this dead horse. Lets appreciate it for what it is.

Thanks for the apology

Rich

This has been a very educational thread for me. Thanks to all who have participated.

Danny

Newbe Here!! Why does my dagger have the mother of pearl one the outside of the metal at the top and not under it?

Hi Clay Im pretty sure your dagger is a repro as you have a sharp eye to notice the pearl grip plates being on the outside the other red flag is that as far as I know Horster never made any Of these type of daggers. Eickhorn and Alcoso were the sole makers. There is also a "sheen" type of shine to the fittings that is not common to see with original examples. Some of the Govt. official boys will be along soon to give a better assessment. regards Larry

Wow! Thanks for the input. This has been in our family
since the'50s. My great Uncle brought it back from Europe
after the war. He gave it to my dad. It spent most of the
last 40 years in a drawer wrapped in an old tee shirt.

Miss-information is horrible. GO's are also made by Eickhorn, Alcoso, Horster, Puma, and some are unmarked. WKC's exist but are very questionable.

Your right Houston I have been "Horribly" misinformed,, and thank you for the update on the other makers that do exist on GOs,, but the question is what do you think of the dagger posted, by Clay. Is it a repro or is it authentic, to the possible discrepancies I pointed out. Please enlighten me so as I can give a formal apology to Clay if it is warranted. regards Larry

I see no problem with this dagger. Horster GO's are usually of a slighly lesser quality overall than Eickhorn but often have a better formed swaz than Alcoso GO's. I would agree that the grip plates have shifted. They are just glued to the wooden base and quite often come loose. Then they may become warped a bit and may stick out a bit. This can easily be corrected with proper re-glueing if the warping is not too severe. Horster GO's are not common but are not as popular with newer collectors as the old textbook brands. IMO this textbook thing is way out of control. When used improperly, as it often is, as an exclusive test of authenticity ,it is often incorrect and tends to discredit many pieces which are very rare and highly collectible. It's like an authentic SA dagger with a maker not "in the book". VERY rare, but many will automatically think it can't be real.

Clay my apologies for misleading information as GOs are not my strong point,, as I said that it would be better for someone else to give a better assessment. Thank you Houston. regards Larry

Very true! In the early 1960's I turned up an early SS with the Wilhelm Halbach TM. The local dagger king pronounced it fake because "only Eickhorn, Hammesfahr, Klass, Boker, Herder, and Pack made the SS dagger".

been away a long time. Was my dagger a fake or not??