#29271
02/13/2010 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
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OP
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
Hi All: Some of you may have seen the partially ground SS Röhm dagger for sale at Regimentals.com (item 45124) that is numbered 44 284. SS No. 44 284 was assigned to SS-Hauptsturmführer Toni Urlaub. I have been looking for a partially ground identifiable SS dagger and investigated this one further after it was first posted. Urlaub is listed in the 1935-1938 SS-Dienstalterslistes and has a SS Officer File and Race & Settlement File in the National Archives. I was initially excited to find a photo of him in his SS Officer File. Enjoy! Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
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#29272
02/13/2010 12:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
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OP
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
His SS Officer File contained five copies his SS-Stammrolle and his Führerstammkarte. Three of the SS-Stammrolle were in the format adopted in 1934 where it was to be recorded if the person received the Enrendolches der SA (SS). All of his cards clearly indicate that he had not. The portion that I posted here even carries the later correction for when he received his Totenkopfring. Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
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#29273
02/13/2010 12:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
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OP
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
He had not become a full member of the SS until December 1932. His Fragebogen, shown below, that he filled out records that he had not been a member of the SA or HJ prior to the SS which would have qualified him if all had taken place before 31 December 1931. Since I have yet to see any order concerning a change in who received the Ehrendolch, I'll let someone else acquire this one. Hate to own things that I have to later make apologies for. See you at the SOS! Due to the snow, the National Archives & the rest of the Federal government in D.C. have been shut down for an unprecedented five days. Your tax dollars not at work this week. Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
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#29274
02/13/2010 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
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OP
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
Mark it sold! Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
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#29275
02/15/2010 01:24 AM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 123
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 123 |
So what did the dagger look like ?
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#29276
02/15/2010 04:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
Jim
I will post pictures once I receive the dagger.
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#29277
02/15/2010 05:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 123
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 123 |
quote: Originally posted by North of 55: Jim
I will post pictures once I receive the dagger.
Great, looking forward to it for my files.
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#29278
02/17/2010 09:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
Do you mean the dagger became "ground Röhm" after the war?
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#29279
02/18/2010 11:00 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049 |
Ross on the Fragebogen he answers one question with nein i.e. no but are the other questions including the ehrendegen and todtenkopf ring ones answered with a tick i.e. saying yes some of them look definitely like ticks whilst others look more like forward slashes.How do other Fragebogen look when answered in the affirmative if they are ticks he was in the SA and the HJ makes sense that they are otherwise surely he would have answered nein as he did to one question shown surely
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#29280
02/18/2010 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671
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OP
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 671 |
Hi AJ: He used "./." and "/" in other parts of his Fragbogen where the requested information did not apply. His Führerstammkarte also does not indicate service in the SA or HJ. Ross Kelbaugh www.ssdaggers.com
"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
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#29281
02/18/2010 04:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,821 Likes: 26
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,821 Likes: 26 |
It looks like he answered "Ja" for the honor ring and "nein" for the guestion,Were you a political leader? All other questions are clearly marked and answered with slash marks. Slash marks mean what? Is it the same as N/A (non applicable or not available)which is used to indicate the deliberate omission of information? Or simply means doesn't apply and will use slash marks to fill in the blank spaces so the paperwork looks properly filled in?
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#29282
02/18/2010 04:38 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,821 Likes: 26
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,821 Likes: 26 |
Ross you replied before I asked the question, man your fast. Got it, / eguals doesn't apply.
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#29283
02/18/2010 05:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049 |
Cheers Ross thanks for the explanation wouldn't be keen to own that dagger in light of the paper trail you have uncovered Tony
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#29284
03/17/2010 01:34 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
Pictures Partial SS Rohm Number 44284
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#29285
03/17/2010 01:34 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
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#29286
03/17/2010 01:35 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Posts: 68 |
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#29287
03/17/2010 11:48 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 568
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 568 |
Nice one, more pictures please.
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#29288
03/18/2010 01:34 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
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#29289
03/18/2010 01:35 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Posts: 68 |
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#29290
03/28/2010 01:56 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,918 Likes: 3
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,918 Likes: 3 |
This appears to be a nice example with a lot of charactor, and history. A truly unique find.
I have a ground similar SS Rohm by Eichorn, may I ask what they are worth. Without all the research, of course.
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#29291
04/06/2010 11:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Personally I dont like that dedication one bit, looks like it could have been post war applied IMO.
I have a fake that looks very similar with all the crossgrain polished out then they re apply a dedication. Looks to heavy in parts for me. You might want to get that under a digital microscope to be on the safe side.
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#29292
04/06/2010 11:35 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29293
04/06/2010 11:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Hereder Ground rohm, I just bought this one last week.
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#29294
04/06/2010 11:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Sorry just enlarged the pic
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#29295
04/06/2010 11:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
I will post you some more pics when I am home tommorow as close up comparisons. But get someone to check it out in hand to make sure you have not bought a lemon, like Frederick Stevens or Gailen etc. From the pictures I would have some concerns over that piece and also from the stuff that Ross posted.
Far better safe than sorry, people dont like to imply something could be wrong but I felt the need to raise the red flag for you on it.
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#29296
04/07/2010 02:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
Thanks for the input, I did purchase it from a reputable dealer. But that being said. You never know and I have heard of post war inscription which does concern me. I will be getting a opinion on the dagger.
Mario
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#29297
04/07/2010 08:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Dear Mario very wise move... you have a great dealer in Canada you might try, or send it to one of the experts on here.
Im afraid just because it comes from a dealer does not mean it is right.
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#29298
04/07/2010 10:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Here you are, this one turned up in the post today from Vets son in the US.I have taken some better pictures. it still has all the cross grain on the blade and a deep burnish both sides. But you can see that the dedication is finer to look at and not as deep as the one you have.
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#29299
04/07/2010 10:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29300
04/07/2010 10:29 AM
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Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29301
04/07/2010 10:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29302
04/07/2010 10:30 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29303
04/07/2010 10:38 AM
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Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29304
04/07/2010 10:39 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29305
04/07/2010 10:39 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29306
04/07/2010 10:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
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#29307
04/07/2010 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
Using logic and common sense: The SS man himself declares that he was NOT entitled to carry an honor dagger, so there are 3 solutions possible (assuming it is not parts dagger): 1. According to the SS number stamped on the crossguard the dagger belonged to him and the dedication is post war. 2. Dedication is original to the blade and whole dagger, but the number was added post war. 3. Both dedication and number are post war done to enhance the value
Is there any other option? Sorry, but "it comes from the dealer = it must be authentic" is worth to me as much as "they told it on TV = it must be truth".
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#29308
04/07/2010 02:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
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#29309
04/07/2010 03:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049 |
Scroll down a few threads to the one started by Hakan81 re a Haenel SA partial Rohm imo the dedication is the same dremel job as this Herder Bit late to get a hands on done now should have asked someone to visit FJS perhaps and OKed it first can't see you getting a return after so long but hope you do.
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#29310
04/08/2010 02:51 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
I thank you all for your input. I have compared the inscription on my SA rohm and yes there is a difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sh......... Adam good point. Well sending it off for a writen report and then lets see what happens.
Mario
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#29311
04/10/2010 02:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
"They" could have done much better with the fonts they picked out to stamp the crossguard.
-serge-
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#29312
05/04/2010 08:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
Well I have a report on this dagger. Looks like the blade is good but the serial number is not period, And the dagger has lower crossguard issues {alteration} and the grip is not orginal to this dagger. {Parts dagger} Not something I want in my collection. Thanks guys. This site is great
Mario
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#29313
05/05/2010 01:16 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 568
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 568 |
Can you return it & get your money back from the selling dealer ?
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#29314
05/05/2010 08:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
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#29315
05/05/2010 12:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
I have sent a request for a return. See what happens.
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#29316
05/07/2010 06:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 68 |
Just to let you know the Dagger is going back. Getting money back.
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#29317
05/08/2010 09:28 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 435
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 435 |
Nice result. Glad for you!
If you want to criticise someone first walk a mile in their shoes. Then, when they come after you, you'll be a mile ahead and they'll be barefoot.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
Mongo - can you post the PICs of the fake SS in your possesion as a warning on what to whach out?
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