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Has anyone 1 photo with this famous DJ knife in wear???Never seen.

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No one should be in any doubt that these so-called DJ and BDM knives are anything more than a fantasy:

See the two links posted by Mac above and also this one

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606446

The above thread also contains discussion of the bag as I remeber. If not, the discussion will be on the HJ Research forum

Those who belive that the "DJ" and "BDM" knives are period items have the burden of proof.

PS: there is no Wittmann photo. It does not exist.


Last edited by Nork; 11/03/2013 07:05 PM. Reason: added a little more
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Matarese,

Correct no in-wear photos.

Nork,

As I mentioned on the previous page to Mac, we need to have the info here, rather than on another site. Could you please post the key points proving these are post-war.

thanks

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A few other questions for everyone:

Has anyone seen a "DJ" style knife with a maker/RZM mark?

Has anyone seen one with the grip plates off? Any marks?

On the version with an HJ diamond on the scabbard, is it glued or pined?

Dave

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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus


Nork,

As I mentioned on the previous page to Mac, we need to have the info here, rather than on another site. Could you please post the key points proving these are post-war.

thanks


Hi,

Sorry, I don't have the time to do that. It wouldn't take you too long to copy the relevant points across to this thread though. I must say that it always seems to be the case that the doubters are required to carry the burden of proof - even when the believers offer none. Perhaps it would be useful and, dare I say, radical, if the believers were to post some primary literature, photos in support of these knives. Currently the primary literature and complete absence of photos are carrying the case for those who believe these knives to be a fantasy created by certain dealers. I don't see this situation changing any time soon but I am always receptive to verifiable evidence that might change my opinion.

Last edited by Nork; 11/03/2013 08:53 PM.
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I'd the 2 pattern in my collection but I haven't keep them.
On the version with the HJ diamond on scabbard, the HJ diamond is pined & moove, never glued.
What is very strange is that all dagger are found in wear on period photos especially very rare one (napola, Teno, postchhutz, Feldherrnhalle...).
DJ jungs were so many & ANY photos or always seen with HJ dagger. For me it's a proof that these DJ knife don't exist during III Reich.

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Pinned HJ insignia

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Dave & others,

The diamond on my DJ-knife is indeed attached with pins & it whiggles.

Best regards,

Herman

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With the pin types besides protruding away from the body of the scabbard, with many of them they are misaligned, sometimes by quite a bit. With some others glued, although it’s had to say without an X-Ray if they were made that way, or were repairs for broken off emblems. With the example here showing the way the emblems were installed by drilling through into the interior damaging it. With this being the only “RZM” marked one that I’ve seen, with the (supposedly period) “RZM” marking using an inverted stamp with no identifiers, just the inverted “RZM”. BTW: A well known dealer who at the time he was selling them (the “BDM” no emblem type), said that those in a batch he had acquired (in as new condition) were wrapped in a piece of plain brown paper with a string tied around the knife. No bags. Regards, Fred

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Guys,


Heres another Question, If these knifes were intended for use by the DJ would it not be more sensible to put the proper DJ Sig-rune enamel badge insignia in the griplate same as the hj knife? instead of an HJ diamond insignia crudely attached to the scabbard where it can easily get pulled or snagged then damaged or lost?.... looks like the fakers made a mistake whistle



Regards Mac 66.

1FSSIGRUNERZMPATCH.jpg (116.02 KB, 215 downloads)
BuckleHJGiltRuneF.jpg (37.38 KB, 217 downloads)
y-4607 021 [800x600].JPG (118.3 KB, 204 downloads)
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I don't think that the theory has legs Mac. The Jungvolk had a character more akin to the pre-HJ Bündische youth for many years (good article here: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f48/history-deutsches-jungvolk-4905/)and this was slowly but surely eradicated by the Reichsjugendführung. The DJ badge went, the DJ buckle went and so did the DJ-specific rank insignia. The only remnant left at the end was the rune sleeve patch. The membership badge of the Hitler Youth, which obviously included the Jungvolk, was the diamond and I simply cannot see anyone making the decision to allow the DJ to wear a redundant badge on these knives. In any case, the badge you show there became an honour badge that showed early membership of the DJ and was only permitted to be worn on civilian clothing long before the period in which these knives are said (by those who like them) to have been in use.

@Dave Hohaus:

It can be proven through the use of the document shown earlier in the thread and in many, many other period sources that the DJ wore the standard HJ knife. I refer you to the threads mentioned earlier. No proof has ever been shown that would allow the collector to reach any other conclusion. The case against these knives is solid so perhaps it would be more productive to push the believers for their evidence rather than repeating what has already been established on other forums.

Last edited by Nork; 11/05/2013 05:13 PM.
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Hi Nork,


No worries it was just me thinking out loud, DJ used the same knife as HJ with diamond insignia, enough said by me on this thread.


Regards Mac 66.

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While I think that there is an abundance of evidence that disproves the legitimacy of a NSDAP - Third Reich connection for the various aluminum hilted “small knives”. And no one has brought forth any actual period proof otherwise as regards the so-called “BDM” or “DJ” versions. Or the more commonly seen earliest version of the “Party Day” aluminum "small knife" that could conceivably (in theory) be arguable - but two senior GDC forum members recall a circa 1980’s first appearance that was discussed on the Forum a while back. And the “Olympic" knife version which is not arguable IMO with an HJ emblem in the grip, and the very shoddy workmanship that some examples exhibit, as not being looked at as anything other than postwar. And likewise the different hybrids/combinations that are periodically seen for sale: with different grips, etchings, sometimes “maker” logos, etc. that make up the rest of this group of knives from being viewed as simply "specialty items" made for the collectors market, and/or to get around the negative comments seen on various forums at different times.

And with that said, I would like to reintroduce some additional documentation with first a 1933 law protecting NSDAP symbols.

MAY 19, 1933
Gesetz zum Schutze der nationalen Symbole. Vom 19. Mai 1933
.
  Die Reichsregierung hat das folgende Gesetz beschlossen, das hiermit verkündet wird:
§ 1   Es ist verboten, die Symbole der deutschen Geschichte, des deutschen Staates und der nationalen Erhebung in Deutschland öffentlich in einer Weise zu verwenden, die geeignet ist, das Empfinden von der Würde dieser Symbole zu verletzen.
§ 2   Die höhere Verwaltungsbehörde des Herstellungsortes entscheidet, ob ein Gegenstand der Vorschrift des § 1 zuwider in Verkehr gebracht worden ist. In diesem Fall unterliegen Gegenstände dieser Art der entschädigungslosen Einziehung.
§ 3   Die Polizeibehörden können schon vor der Entscheidung des höheren Verwaltungsbehörden die Beschlagnahme des Gegenstandes vornehmen, wenn nach ihrem Ermessen ein Verstoß gegen das Verbot des § 1 vorliegt. Sie haben in solchen Fällen unverzüglich der für die Entscheidung zuständigen Verwaltungsbehörde Mitteilung zu machen.
§ 4   [1] Gegen die Entscheidung der höheren Verwaltungsbehörde können Beteiligte binnen 2 Wochen Beschwerde bei der obersten Landesbehörde einlegen. Die Beschwerde hat keine aufschiebende Wirkung.
  [2] Der Reichsminister für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda sowie die der höheren Verwaltungsbehörde übergeordnete Landesregierung können durch einen von ihnen bestellten Vertreter des öffentlichen Interesses innerhalb der im Absatz 1 bestimmten Frist ebenfalls die Entscheidung der obersten Landesbehörde anrufen.
  [3] Bis zur Rechtskraft der Entscheidung gilt die von der höheren Verwaltungsbehörde verfügte Einziehung als Beschlagnahme.
§ 5   Für die Wirkungen einer Beschlagnahme wird Entschädigung auch dann nicht gewährt, wenn rechtskräftig entschieden wird, daß ein Verstoß gegen das Verbot des § 1 nicht vorliegt.........................

Berlin, den 19. Mai 1933.

Der Reichskanzler
Adolf Hitler
Der Reichsminister
für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda
Dr. Goebbels
Der Reichsminister des Innern
Frick


Amended a little later in 1933, and in 1934, to clarify some issues and establish penalties for violating the law. And then in 1935 the following:

JANUARY 16, 1935
Bekanntmachung gemäß Artikel 1 § 5 des Gesetzes gegen heimtückische Angriffe auf Staat und Partei und zum Schutz der Parteiuniformen vom 20. Dezember 1934 (Reichsgesetzbl. I S. 1269). Vom 16. Januar 1935.

Nach Artikel 1 § 5 des Gesetzes gegen heimtückische Angriffe auf Staat und Partei und zum Schutz der Parteiuniformen vom 20. Dezember 1934 dürfen parteiamtliche Uniformen, Uniformteile, Gewebe, Fahnen und Abzeichen der NSDAP, ihrer Gliederungen oder der ihr angeschlossenen Verbände nur mit Erlaubnis des Reichsschatzmeisters der NSDAP  gewerbsmäßig hergestellt, vorrätig gehalten, feilgehalten oder sonst in Verkehr gebracht werden.
  Auf Grund des Artikels 1 § 5 Abs. 1 Satz 2 des genannten Gesetzes bestimme ich im Einvernehmen mit dem Reichswirtschaftsminister die Uniformteile und Gewebe, für die es der Erlaubnis bedarf, wie folgt:
I. Uniformteile
1. Bekleidungsgegenstände für die Politische Organisation der NSDAP, für SA und SA-Marine, für die SS, für das Nationalsozialistische Kraftfahr-Korps, für die Hitler-Jugend mit dem Deutschen Jungvolk, dem Bund Deutscher Mädel und den Jungmädeln sowie für die Deutsche Arbeitsfront:...................
2. Sonstige Uniformteile:
Leibriemen mit einer Mindestbreite von 45 Millimetern, Schulterriemen, Sturzhelme für das Nationalsozialistische Kraftfahr-Korps, Koppelschlösser, Zweidornschnallen, Dienstdolche der SA und SS, Fahrtenmesser für die Hitler-Jugend und das Deutsche Jungvolk, Ärmelabzeichen, Ärmelstreifen, Armbinden, .....................

Berlin, den 16. Januar 1935.

Der Reichsschatzmeister der NSDAP
und Generalbevollmächtigte des Führers
in allen vermögensrechtlichen Angelegenheiten
der NSDAP
Schwarz
Der Reichswirtschaftsminister
Mit der Führung der Geschäfte beauftragt:
Hjalmar Schacht
Präsident des Reichsbankdirektoriums


Do we see listed above a so-called “BDM” knife? Or a separate “DJ” knife? Or any of the hybrid knives that are seen for sale every so often? And was the NSDAP (and by extension the RZM) still in control of Germany not only in the early years, but also from 1942 to the end? Regards, Fred

PS: With my apologies for the length of this posting.

Olympic version 1.jpg (84.16 KB, 438 downloads)
Olympic version 1 - rear.jpg (45.85 KB, 439 downloads)
Last edited by Fred Prinz - FP; 11/06/2013 08:12 AM.
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And from an earlier GDC discussion. Here is a counterfeiters test etching of the "Party Day" knife, with the new etching superimposed over an original old worn, and pitted blade. Regards, Fred

party day duo 1.jpg (121.09 KB, 388 downloads)
partyday pitting inverted 2.jpg (121.16 KB, 387 downloads)
partyday shield inverted 3.jpg (56.18 KB, 391 downloads)
partyday shield 4.jpg (107.4 KB, 391 downloads)
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Here is a real & very early DJ-knife.

cool

Best regards,

Herman

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Good find, Herman.

I think if we keep looking more info will emerge, especially in period photos.

In searching through photos, most of the DJ have no knives at all. A few have HJ knives as we have seen here, but a few also had knives carried in a leather sheath. Two were pictured above and here is another.

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I have looked through my nearly 1700 wearing photographs and I finally found the DJ knife without emblem in a period wearing pic.
grin

DJ.JPG (18.73 KB, 310 downloads)
DJ1.JPG (50.6 KB, 312 downloads)
Last edited by wotan; 11/07/2013 06:12 PM.

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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BUT... it is not what it looks at the first glance. It is a WWI trench knife worn by a DJmember in lack of a real HYknife.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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I guarantee that no one will ever find a period, unaltered photo showing the "DJ" knife in wear. I admire the dedication shown by correspondents on this thread but believe me, no, believe history - it's pointless. People have been duped for decades and the culprits refuse to speak up. Ask Mr Wittmann to show you evidence, ask Mr Johnson, indeed, ask anyone who believes in these knives to show proof that they are from the period and that the DJ wore them. None of these people will be able to show anything verifiable - at all. The best you can hope for is that someone will say "well T Wittmann likes them and he wrote lots of books (with no footnotes) so it MUST be true!". Sadly, that is the state of affairs that has existed for many years.

Very nice knife by the way Hermann V.

Last edited by Nork; 11/08/2013 05:44 PM.
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There is an older thread that I bumped up yesterday that is very much worth reading. There are some very interesting photos on pages 6 & 7 that ad to this discussion. it is called 'Nurnburg, Olympic, DJ, BDM"

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DJ youngs again with HJ knife!

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Here are three kids being .... kids laugh

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I have been asking experienced guys that I know on this subject.

One of them say that there exists a version of the "DJ" knife that is much heavier, being made of iron or steel or a heavier alloy. The one he saw was trademarked with the Robert Klass kissing cranes. No RZM.

Anybody else aware of this?

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Hi Dave,

You must have been told about the Klaas HJ with small bowie blade.

Another tough case: believed to be post war produced with the "fleur-de-lys" emblem replaced by an HJ diamond...

Looks nice though...

Best regards,

Herman

B1.JPG (109.48 KB, 268 downloads)
B2.jpg (90.35 KB, 267 downloads)
B3.jpg (90.1 KB, 269 downloads)

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Dave, Herman,


I owned the same KLAAS knife Herman shows here but mine had plain griplates both sides with no insert for insignia at all, hilt was made of heavy steel that was nickle plated, it was a post war made knife.


Regards Mac 66.

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Mac,

What makes you think that it was post war ?

Dave

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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
Mac,

What makes you think that it was post war ?

Dave


Dave,


I was told by the german seller at the time i bought it was a post war made knife & had been in there family since the mid 50s, the lack of any insignia in the plain griplate & no RZM stamp also made me think post war, i sent photos to DD harris at that time when i was not a member of any forums & he also said it was post war, hope his helps.



Regards Mac 66.

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Shouldn't it have "Germany" or "Made in Germany" somewhere on it if it were postwar? I know that I have seen that on B&A daggers and some other knives as well as toys. This comment also applies to the "DJ/BDM" knives.

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All of the information on this thread so far has been out there for years. The well-meaning folks providing it know that and they also know that this thread, like all of the others, will be ignored by those who believe in these knives and/or sell them. We must challenge those who think that these knives are period and that they were worn by Deutsches Jungvolk to come forward with some proof. On a forum dedicated to blades I would have thought that the "DJ" "BDM", RPT and Olympic knives would have been put to bed one way or the other by now but clearly not. Odd. Let me recommend the threads mentioned earlier in the thread once again.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
Shouldn't it have "Germany" or "Made in Germany" somewhere on it if it were postwar? I know that I have seen that on B&A daggers and some other knives as well as toys. This comment also applies to the "DJ/BDM" knives.


Dave,
there was no legal obligation to mark goods produced for the German market with the "Made in Germany" marking.
Best;
Hermann

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I don't know about this blade mentioned, but these bowie styled blades were made during the period. Instead of post war "made", could the knife mentioned above be post war "assembled"?

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... still undecided with this question, please keep in mind it is not my field, I'd thought to check the regulations which I have in my possession.

First add is an excerpt from the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP from 1937, where everything organizational was regulated.
The knife mentioned there is the one with the 'diamond' insignia on the grip.

Additionally I've added an official equipment list from the BDM. No knife was mentioned as being a part of the 'Bundestracht'.

This is not meant as a support for the pro or contras of these little daggers, my knowledge is to limited for this. My post should just add these regulations to the knowledge base here on this forum.

Organisationshandbuch.jpg (82.6 KB, 311 downloads)
BDM Equipment 1940.jpg (105.02 KB, 311 downloads)
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Originally Posted By: Nork
All of the information on this thread so far has been out there for years. The well-meaning folks providing it know that and they also know that this thread, like all of the others, will be ignored by those who believe in these knives and/or sell them. We must challenge those who think that these knives are period and that they were worn by Deutsches Jungvolk to come forward with some proof. On a forum dedicated to blades I would have thought that the "DJ" "BDM", RPT and Olympic knives would have been put to bed one way or the other by now but clearly not. Odd. Let me recommend the threads mentioned earlier in the thread once again.




Nork, i agree, lets see some solid proof from the dealers who peddle these DJ knives, we could go on forever at this rate tired



@ flyingdutchman, good solid info again from you, Thanks



Regards Mac 66.

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German manufactures weren't obligated to mark period, but if they registered their marks then why not. Germany has been putting "Made in Germany" on products for the past 126 years, mostly for export and not because of their law. If the EU gets it's way this might change.

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Another DJ youth photo with HJ style knife.

17690749900339521998.jpg (97.89 KB, 258 downloads)

Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
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Collectors,


Heres a thought running through my mind, what happens when all the collectors who have purchased these "DJ Knifes" in good faith thinking they were genuine TR produced for use by the DJ catch wind of all this controversy that they are Post War humped up knifes & say to themselves gees i,ve been duped & decide they all want there hard earned cash back !, anybody any thoughts ??



Regards Mac 66.

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That could be interesting if it were true. Dates of manufacture are unknown at this point.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
That could be interesting if it were true. Dates of manufacture are unknown at this point.


Dave,

Seems many collectors are now thinking that these knifes were never intended for use by DJ & that the used the hj knife with diamond insignia, so many collectors now are thinking that these DJ knifes were sold on false pretences ?


Would carbon dating the steel blade on a DJ give a rough date to when the blade was made, griplates or leather scabbard hanger maybe ?

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I would say we are still wondering just what these knives were and when the were made.

Here is an interesting picture:

IMG1.jpg (45.92 KB, 254 downloads)
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That is from Tom Johnson's Volume VIII, Page 149. The photos are pretty dark.

Here is the rest of the knife

IMG2.jpg (30.86 KB, 254 downloads)
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