UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum 1st model navy dagger

Hi Guys
This is first time I have own 1st model navy dagger.
I would like to hear your opinions.
The blade is unmarked,so is any way to tell,who is the maker?
Is this 1902 model?

more pic.

Stingray,
This piece has many unique features. The scabbard bands, scabbard decor, grip, blade etch, blade shape, blade retention tang and pommel are unusual and cause me to pause. Hopefully Hermann (Flyingdutchman) will weigh in.
Best regards,
Rick

I have one that is almost identical to this one including the odd scabbard bands. The scabbard bands are attached, not part of the scabbard. The grip is ivory, and it is the shorter version. I purchased mine in Europe in 1995. The detail on my pommel appears to be a bit sharper, but the similarities are remarkable to include the crown.

Both myself and everyone who ha seen it has agreed, it is original.

That being said, I also would like to hear from other collectors.

Thanks guys
Any more opinions?



Stingray

Very nice looking dagger. The grip ivory does not look that old though.
I would expect after 100yrs it would have some more age to it.
Again Hermann would be able to contribute here.

Stingray,

may I ask you for a close-up photo from the side of the blade tip, please? And, please, don't shoot photos in direct sunlight. A place in the shadow during nice weather is better imo.

Best;
Hermann

Lakeside. On my example, one side of the ivory is dark from exposure and the other side lighter. Not near as light as the flash from the poor photo. So I have little doubt as to the age.

I am very interested in other comments, because the scabbard in particular is different.

... for comparison I would like to show you a dagger which I had the chance to look at closely. There is no name on that piece, so it can't be attributed to someone. Also the portepee is a later addition. But the dagger is correct for an early example:

http://www.militaria-lexikon.de/html/militaria-lexikon_de_-_kaiserl1.html

Best;
Hermann

Jim, may I ask you also for a photo from the side of the blade tip, please?

Best;
Hermann

Hermann, If I understand the photo you want, it is a tough one. But, here is the tip from several angles.

Here are additional photos of grip etc.

Jim,

yeah, nice and early dagger for sea officers. Great piece. Blade was not shortened, what happened very often and is not detracting the historical value in any way.

Thank you very much for the additional phototshooting. Always a pleasure to look at fine navies.

Best;
Hermann

Thank you everyone. I have been carrying this dagger around now for 18 years without seeing a similar scabbard. I can not tell you how happy I am stingray started this thread and that I have documentation..

I assume his is OK also???

Paul,

usually you're absolutely right. But sometimes one can find an ivory grip nearly 100yrs old which looks like NOS. Please have a look at this dagger: Well worn, late WW1 iron configuration and the grip looks like new: http://www.germanautoandaerocorps.com/navydaggers/images/krebs-dagger5_900.jpg
Itt is the original grip to that dagger.

Best;
Hermann

Jim,

stingrays photos unfortunately were made in bright sunshine with heavy shadows and so much sunlight that I'm not able to understand the surface of the metal. Actualy I think it is a cut down 1890 dagger with a later purchased shorter scabbard.
Daggers in the 1890 length were regulated for sea cadets and sea officers with the exception of the open crown pommel, but officers often carried shorter daggers. So they used their 1890 blade, crossguard and ivory grip, shortened that blade and bought a shorter scabbard and open crown pommel. Sometimes, as one can see in the link I've provided, they also bought a new grip with grip wire. Sounds complified? It is... ;-)

Best;
H.

Thanks guys,I will make more pictures later today.

Regards

I too agree looking at the blade this is probably a cut down version and a beauty too boot !

Ok guys,here are the pictures and for sure the blade was shortened.

Stingray,

thanks for the additiionel photos. The last photo indicates strongly a cut down blade, look at the thickness.

Can we get over all length in scabbard and width of cross guard, please?

Best;
Hermann

Hermann the dagger in scabbard measures 15", the blade length
is 9 5/8" and width of cross guard is 3".

Regards
Stingray

Mine is the same exact measurements except the blade is 9 1/2 inches.

I would also like to note how perfect the blades fit to these scabbards. That small locking mechanism closes easily and stays closed.

Ed and Hermann. To clarify, it appears my dagger is also cut down?

Jim

I surely do enjoy seeing the beauty in the link. The crossguard measurements are correct for this diminutive dagger. There was at least I have see with a smaller portepee to match. I have thought these were made by Carl Kaiser about 1904. Perhaps one will turn up with a marked blade sometime.

Good to see you, Vic Sensei.

Jim, it seems to me your dagger blade was NOT cut down.

Maker seems indeed Carl Kaiser, the blade etching is the key to that maker.

Best;
Hermann