UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum SA MARINE

HI i hope someone can help me i have nearly all of the books on german ww2 dress daggers and in one of them i saw an article on a sa marine dagger. The dagger had some unit markings on the top chappe .I think it was in one of johnsons books but i just cant find it and the index book is not the best .CAN ANYONE HELP.
DIPPY

the markings are similar to mine 15/53863 H.F.
DIPPY

Dippy, can you post yours?
Serge

Will do when i find the grr item in the book,i have a photo that goes with it and a couple of friends.
dippy

Dippy; see Johnson - German daggers of WWII, vol 2, page 271 upper r.h. pic'. Could this be the one?
16/13209 stamped on upper chape and stated by the author to be an SA Marine.

Thanks barry ,no sorry.I think it might have been in one of witmanns offerings booklets ,trouble is i have loads of them so will trawl tonite.
dippy

well i cant find the photo im sure it is in a johnson book somewhere.Anyway here is one of my sa marine daggers that came with a photo.in the boat are three ss men and mr sa marine.any info on the uniform would be good.The markings on the top chappe are very close to the numbers on this elusive photo.
dippy

c

Tremendous info Dippy. Makes a lot of sense with gau Nordmark stamp-cant get much more surrounded by water than Denmark!
Paul

The SA Marine dagger is great area for in-depth research and discussion. Don't know if we have the experienced membership still here who can contribute to this much needed gap in the type Mod. 33 SA Marine dagger anymore.

Why are some examples just all black SA type which are sloppily painted grip and scabbard like Dippy's seems to be?
While a few others seem to have a fine dyed black grip and a blued scabbard?
Then again, some have a Gilt plating on all the metal fittings ?

All of the above are considered my many collectors as 'Marine' daggers. However, TTBOMK to date there has been no surfaced written source documentation regarding a 'Marine' type SA dagger variant.

In years past I recall a very good thread on the subject, but that's vanished long ago.

Serge

I thought while i was on a roll with conjecture i would photograph my marine sa daggers all with hangers ,the two verticals are rare items .I understand that my photos are not very good but all of the daggers are firstly hard to find and secondly as metioned before relativly hard to source information on.All of the main dealers have sections for these daggers so why are they bought and sold as sa marine daggers if that is not what they purport to be. See my period photo as proof .I have been collecting for many years now and watched the forum diminish in posts on anything but text book items .This i feel is due to a feeling of dread that daggers will be shot down in flames and devalued previously my feelings.Most of the collectors want mint text book examples.Well i like the fact these items can be collected as is and in fact the vast majority of my items have come direct from vets in germany and the uk ,many have had non text book hangers etc on them.We all value opinions as that is what they are, as for the difference between specialist ,expert and collector there is maybe a fine line and who decides where and who the title belongs to.When i started i was given the advice to buy all the books on the subject,and handle as many as you can this will enable you to get a feel for period or not. I am sure in my collection i have a few wrong uns but as far as sa marine daggers go i have six so i will trust my opinion until i see someone with 7.To encourage other collectors maybe some positve stroking would help the hobby grow rather than the fear that there are hoards of fakers at every corner blacking up sa daggers to make marine versions etc and making an already nervous group of collectors terified.Please enjoy my photos and take them for what they are and that is a representation of items i have collected and enjoy from my engineering and collector veiwpoint also to share with others.
Now i have put the world to rights i am off in true british fashion up the pub.
dippy

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OH NOTE THE TWO OPTIONS FOR THE VERTICAL A BIT OF A WELL THOUGHT OUT FIRST I THINK.!
DROOPY

No wonder i can't find one
superb collection

SA Marine daggers (SA Kraftbooteinheiten) have brown handles, black scabbard and gilt fittings. It's mentioned in a period book. Just saw it recently.

Therefore if the fittings are silver, it's most likely a NSKK dagger with an erroneously black painted grip. Presumably due to a misunderstanding of the order - instead of painting the scabbard only, the entire dagger (scabbard and grip) was painted black.

Hi Ivbaust,,I trust what you say,,and it would be beneficial to the forum and the Type collectors of this illusive dagger,,,,..if you may,...to post a photo of this rare period book or the order in the book that came down from the SA command, stipulating this. Maybe in this case it will finally shed some light on a subject of discussion for years,,....."was it or was it not".. painted, dyed or left brown. Regards Larry

Since it´s such a pain to upload pics here (sorry GDC guys, but I don´t have the time to resize all the pics), I´ve described it with lots of photos on WAF: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710064&posted=1#post5710064

Outstanding examples of marine type SA daggers Dippy.

I agree there is too much fear in the newer collector, but not all unjustified. However, looking into a period Org book they will not find the answers they are looking for. For Example does the 1938 Organizations der NSDAP show a Marine gilt plated HJ Leader? If not then they must not have existed? Ask a veteran collector and a few will say that they pulled them out of the weeds. No Dealers, no shows or collectors. But WHY are they NOT IN THE BOOK ?
IMO, I don't have a answer, however to say that somehow that there was an 'error' and they were just all painted ALL black instead of just the scabbard per order of the NSKK is also just a guess. IMO, a mistaken guess. Are the HJ Marine gilt daggers also a 'error'? We have seen period SA's with carefully dyed BLACK grips and BLUED BLACK scabbards with matching BLACK leather hangers.
I don't think THAT was a mistake, but that's JMO.

Here is one I have in my collection which I know is a SA type marine dagger. It's ALL PAINTED BLACK. The vertical hanger is BLACK and thread and rivet is BLACK- from the factory. It's unmarked.



I guess Dippy you will have to unload your 6 'mistakes' now, are they cheaper by the Half Dozen?

Perhaps one day we will find one of these with a SA Marine dedication then THAT might solve the issue. Oh, probably not, because that dedication might have been placed there last week. -Serge

Phew good job pitbull ,serge and larry happened by.SA MARINE OWNERS OF THE WORLD UNITE SHOW YOUR DAGGERS.lol .Firstly only one of my sa marine dagger handles is painted the rest are stained with the vegetable type dye/stain used on ss daggers ,as far as books are concerned period or otherwise i do not doubt gilt daggers are in circulation and valid but to say that all of the others were either painted or dyed by numpties with an over zealous paintbrush and tin of black hammerite seems a bit far fetched.I would like to point you to some of our books we all read for info, eg johnsons vol 2 page 228 full photo and description of an sa naval black gripped painted scabbard dagger,also johnsons german daggers of ww2 vol 2 page 278 to include the same info and the most recent sa book by ralf siegert page 239 marine sa dagger first pattern with black grip and nickel silver fittings offering of helmut weitze.my opinion would be as the person so far with the inventory to carry out any research that these were the first pattern see my photo and the one in jonnsons book page 280.This in fact is a case similar to the series of luftwaffe development stages.If we can all accept the overwhelming evidence that we have so far ,in that these were worn and did exist also appear to have been sold and bought over the years in good faith,and enjoyed by many a collector.Lets leave them as they stand until they can be proved not to be period rather than try to disprove there standing even though photos and out of the woodwork examples exist.
On a lighter note thank goodness you guys came along as i was just about to get the paint stripper out and turn them back into sa daggers to try to get my money back,also i was going to get some gold paint to turn my nskk daggers shown into gilt sa s wot do you think ???????????
dippy(i hope not)

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Regarding the book Ivbaust posted in the WAF,,and I am thankful for him to provide the link...Although the period book shows in artwork the colors used for the daggers..What is a fact though,,the original orders that came down were misunderstood..the black grips that are or period paint are still authentic SA Marine. If this is the case the misunderstood paint job still served in the Marine units,,making them IMO legitimate SA Marine. When someone marrys into another family,,the new member is not of the same blood,,but has been given the same name as the rest of the family. Black Painted or period dyed grips are in that same family,, regardless what the book says...orders were misunderstood but the dagger and wearer were not divorced from their Marineboat duty. Blood is thicker than steel Great daggers and a great thread, thanks for showing!! Diplo, Rich and Serge.