UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Voos Heer Unique Crossguard

This army is a recent acquisition - At this time I believe it to be a new undiscovered crossguard type. It is a very striking guard with many unique features. The eagles body the first set of feathers and the top wing lines are highly vaulted off the crossguard. The wreath and swastika are oversized in relation to the eagle. The head and body width is about the same. The crossguard has beautiful hand enhancement that follows through to the pommel and scabbard bands. The crossguard and pommel are manufactured of a lightweight base metal and the silver finish matches throughout the hilt and scabbard. The scabbard has two flush mount screws frequently seen on Voos army dagger production. The minty non tapered nickel plated blade has the single oval maker mark the third mark Voos used on army daggers. I believe this dagger was made around 1936-1937 If my memory serves me I have seem this guard one other time and it was on a Voos unfortunately I do not have a picture of it. I certainly would like to hear from the army collectors does anyone else has an example of this crossguard or incite to the company of manufacture ? I love this bird!

Tom, VERY unique guard here! That wreath and Swaz are HUGE!! Hand work is great, look at those wings! Really nice work to the scabbard bands too. I have not seen another like it, would love to see it in person to take in the 3D aspects! Real beauty of a blade to with one of Voos's most attractive marks. Congrats!! Kevin.

PS, How does the ferrel look? Common type?

Its been brought to my attention I was incorrect about the single oval being the 3rd maker mark it�s the fifth and last one Voos used so my date of manufacture must be incorrect as well I wonder what year Voos began to use the single oval mark ?

Resembles a late Anton Wingen except for the wreath?

Kevin thanks the ferrule looks common - nothing special I can see. Here is a picture with the portepee removed showing the ferrule and crossguard. I snapped this when I first received the dagger and never intended this picture for posting . I added the black background to make the picture more presentable for posting.

Mikee I certainly see a resemblance another army collector noted in an email a Wingen resemblance as well the eagle breast is vaulted like the Wingen type 1 not sure if the Wingen type 2 is vaulted as I do not own one?

A few more shots of the guard from different angles. Again I never planned to post these but here they are in raw form.

Tom,

I forgot to say,congratulations on another nice catch!..Interesting, the wreaths on my Army daggers measure aprox. 10,11,11.5 and 12mm across. What's the measurement on this "large wreath" type crossguard? Thanks.

Last MM huh? Hard to believe that this level of handwork would exist in Voos's last efforts in Heer daggers? Maybe Voos didnt produce Heer daggers later in the period..period. This would mean that Voos changed its mark every year or even more frequently though! Kevin.

What appears to be really interesting about this dagger is that the single oval Voos trademark is hardly ever found on daggers with a non-etched blade.
Most plain blade mid period Voos army daggers appear to have either the horizontal or perpendicular trademark shown below, even though the hilt fittings are normally the same Generic variety.

I am wondering whether the company reserved the use of the single oval TM for etched daggers only, even though Toms outstanding dagger above contradicts this theory?.

It would be really helpful if anyone with a Voos, etched or not, could post some pictures.

Degens:

If it helps, I have two Voos maker marks on my three Voos Luft2s.

The first mark is found on a plain blade and is the snake around stump with the name beside the stump.

The second mark is the single oval, found on both an etched blade and on a plain plated blade.

John

John,
Thats interesting, I had not looked at Lufts, I am unable to find another plain blade army other than Toms with this trademark.
Was it a tough mark to source on a Luft and in your opinion, comparing your 1st stamped perpendicular trademarked dagger to the single oval plain bladed dagger, which piece looks earlier?.

The easiest to find TM is the single oval on an etched blade.

The seocdn easiest, IMHO, is the perpendicular one.

I am looking for a Luft2 with a double oval mark and maybe one with the snake around stump with no oval.

I really can't decide which is earlier. Here are pics of the perpendicular one.

John

And, here are pics of the single oval.

John

That is a great x guard Tom & it is even better to see it in close-up. I`m surprised that the tang is not tapered and like my slant Puma I think it only just missed being so.

I have to armies in my collection with the Voos maker mark. Pictures of the second one are not very good. When I find the time I'll take better pictures.

By the way, Tom your Voos dagger is fantastic!

Danny

dr73, Could we get a look at the fittings on your two Voos Heeres?

JohnZ, Nice Voos Lufts! IMO I would give the nod to the non-oval marked one being earlier, but not much. Both have the early traits! Kevin.

John and Danny,
Thanks for sharing your great daggers. The Lufts are gorgeous and very hard to tell which came first, Danny that looks to be a nice pair of armies, can we see the crossguards if possible. This maker mark is the one normally found on plain bladed examples. I am interested to know if either piece has Generic fittings. My guess is the lower one without the personalisation is Generic type "B" / Wingen ?.

Possibly the first as well but hard to tell without a shot of the scabbard.

You are right about the crossguards. Both are the generic B type. The scabbard of the one with the personalization looks like an Eickhorn product. The one without the personalization I have to take out of the safe first. Will post that one later.

No need Danny, the other scabbard is Wingen. Thank you very much for the pictures and for confirming the crossguards.
Nice hand enhancing to the wings on the 2nd dagger.

14MM One of the first things I noticed was this oversized wreath.

Kevin I was told this mark although the last Voos used dates to 36-37 so it�s still fairly early certainly on the cusp of the hand finishing work going away and manufactures going to the guards that did not require any hand detailing. I always thought the Voos stamped marks were later but I don�t scrutinize maker marks I collect by crossguard. Having said that I don�t recall seeing another non etched single oval army? Seems to be scarce.

VB I was surprised as well certainly must have been close to the transition.

John Z � Thank you for helping with the trademarks and some real beauties based on the fittings I agree with Kevin the non oval looks earlier
Danny-Thank you for showing your nice examples Love the hand enhanced crossguard that�s a first for me on this type guard generic B/Wingen

John Z good luck finding this one !

Tom,
That is what I am trying to determine, if the stamped marks were before or after the single oval. If the single oval came first and stamped later, that would mean surely that Voos had a long run of producing only etched blade daggers.........unless they did use all three trademarks concurrently depending on whether the dagger had an etched blade.

The majority of Voos army daggers using either of the stamped or the single oval trademarks are normally fitted with Generic type / Wingen hilt fittings. Irrespective of the type of blade fitted.

Enhanced generic B/ Wingen. That is a first for me as well. Nice!
Degens, I see the logic of your thinking there.

I am glad someone does, had to read it twice myself

Within my files I found at least one (I do have a lot of different VOOS plain blade armies in my files) which I think does resemble the first one shown here.
It�s from an earlier thread 8perhaps gone to time) from or member Roy Caroll and was offered for sale in january 2006 here in the for sale section.
For sure a different dagger as it has a different (color, no hairliner) grip.
Unfortunately the pics arn�t larger.
Regards,

Wotan,
Outstanding, another perfect match to the one that started this thread. I knew I had seen another somehwere. Well done on finding this one in the archives, and well done to Tom for finding a new un-recognised pattern.

I have to say, I never expected another one to be posted so soon.

WOW thats a ringer for Tom's Voos Wotan! Well done.

Danny, wonder if one or both of your Voos Heers are tapered tang???

JohnZ, Is either or your Voos Lufts tapered tang?? I know that is rare in Lufts but I had a WKC in their earliest Luft fittings with a tapered tang! I have a Voos Heer blade with the longatudinal stamped(non oval)Voos mark that IS tapered tang.

Degens, Great info as usual, you are the guardguru!! Kevin.

Really great thread here guys.
Tom your pics are sooooooo good!!!
5 trade marks wow that is crazy. Tome nevr ever seen that one before.
Congrats, you just gotta love this hobby some days!!!

Well isn�t that a beauty! Thank you Wotan Fantastic to see another example Jon I appreciate your research Kevin is right you are the guru I certainly listen and learn when you speak. I am not sure we will ever know who made this guard but the consensus leans towards a Wingen variation or perhaps another early Generic type. Voos used another early generic variety (Landser post that double oval beauty would ya) Paul its really fun some times isn�t it I am looking forward to seeing everyone at the SOS and seeing what treasures await us!

This is really the most exciting thing that has happened for a long time. We have a new confirmed variation! It has certainly rekindled my interest.

Tom....as requested

VB now that�s a real nice army hard to beat this one � Thanks for posting

Realy like the look of your double oval Landser!! That guard has a nice look.. Like to see more of that one, pommel, scabbard, etc. Real beauty there. Kevin.

Within my files I think I found one more dagger with the certain crossguard, here shown first.
It is from our member Gercolctor and was shown here in GDC in april 2008.
Unfortunately the pic is very small but I think we see enough to be able to compare.
We can say that on rare occasions VOOS did use this crossguard type "regularly".
Tom, your photographic skills are unbeatable. Wish I could do at least 10% of them.
It is the icing of the cake, when such a rare bird is pictured in such a tasteful, skillful manner.
Regards,

Here as requested is the hilt showing the scabbard and pommel.

A very neat job was done here on the casting seam.

Wotan,
I think that just about confirms that Toms is not a one off variation of another recognised pattern. Three different daggers all with what looks to be exactly the same crossguard.

I wonder where those two daggers reside now, I would love to see better pictures.

Landser,
That voos is a real beauty, it must have been real close to having a slant grip, not that that matters in the slightest. Great example of the double oval trademark on the blade as well .

THANKS for the extra pics Landser. That Voos is just BEAUTIFUL!! I cant tell you how impressed I am by the detail and look of the hand work, grip and patina..CONGRATS on this dagger. Please let me know if you ever want to move it! Seriously! Kevin.

PS, Are the fittings brass based or light? Is the tang tapered??