UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Rare TM's

As most of you know I love unusual or rare TM's or distributor marks. Lets see some of your unusual marks. This bayonet is in only good- condition but the TM is unusual and rare.

Terry:

You have seen this one before.. an Eickhorn triple oval.

Carter shows this mark as being found on export bayonets.

John

Very nice John, early bakelite & a super tough Eick logo to find.

Here is another unusual TM (Pumeto, Solingen) I also have a small pocket knife with same name on blade

Gents,

Thanks for sharing these great rare marks, nice!

John, saw one of these triple-oval blades on my way home from the Max. It was in such miserable shape that I let it pass, but it immediately brought your nice example to mind.

Terry, that Pumeto is really super, first time I've ever heard of or seen that logo. Outstanding!!

Best!

Bill

Both variations of Terry's "PUMETO" TM are shown in Fisher's Ref. as being used by Lauterjung & Sohn, PUMA-WERK.

Terry: Not sure what you mean, but Lauterjung & Sohn changed their name to Puma-Werk and produced knives with the PUMA logo (RZM M7/27). Similar to Lauterjung & Co. which became Tiger-Werk and used the TIGER logo (M7/68).

Don

Your reply made me re-read Anthony Carters book (The sword and Knife makers of Germany 1850-2000). It includes the brandnames Lauterjung used.I quote " Brandnames :Puma, Capri, Caprilo, Gnat, Katzenbär(bearcat),My Darling, Pluma, Puma High Class, Pumetto, Tuna, Razor King, Shaver King." end quote.

So what is the difference between a brand name and a TM.

answer from the internet--


Brand Names Defined

The Blackcoffee website article, "Creating a Brand Name," states that brand names are signals that carry meaning in the minds of consumers. A brand name should be memorable so that it carries a favorable image of your business in the minds of customers you wish to attract. When people see or hear the words "Kentucky Fried Chicken" or "Wal-Mart," they immediately know what those brands stand for. These brand names are also trademarks of these companies.

Trademark Definition

The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office defines a trademark as words, names, symbols and product design features that are used to distinguish the products or services of one manufacturer or seller from another.


Trademark History

The protection of trademarks in the United States dates to 1788, when they were recognized as legal property. In 1905, trademarks were further protected under interstate commerce provisions.
Lanham Act

The Lanham Act, enacted in 1946, allows companies to sue if they believe a competitor has infringed on a trademark. The law also provides protection to trademark owners from competitors that offer similar or confusing trademarks in an attempt to gain market share. Trademark registration in the United States can be used as a basis for obtaining registration in foreign countries. Firms can filed that registration with the U.S. Customs and Border Protection to prevent importation of infringing foreign goods.

Trademark Facts

Many famous trademarks that started out as unregistered brand names. As sales for these brands grew, the parent companies registered these names as trademarks. FindLaw lists brands that are still around today, and the date they were registered with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. Some examples include Coca-Cola, which was registered as a "nutrient or tonic beverage" in 1893. Ford's trademark for "explosive-engines and their parts" was registered in 1909.

So my Pumeto bayonet is a brand name not a Trade mark. Are we all confused.


I have also attached a photo of my Puma-Werk bayonet. As you can see it has bolts and spanner nuts like E. Pack with one exception. The bolts can only be inserted from the reverse side of the bayonet.

Terry: Your dissertation has left me speechless....and confused.

Yea me to

So it boils down to (in my opinion) Pumeto was a brand name that wasn't registered as a TM.

Terry:

In Fisher, there is a whole series of Brand Names that were used by Puma, including Pumeto and Pumetto.

john

Hi John

I had seen it there but thought he had made a mistake, I needed to read and not look at the pictures .

Here is one that is just funny to me.

Earlier we discussed Pumeto as a brandname, below is another brandname "Baron" . Baron is a brandname of Gottfried Weyersberg Sohne. The Baron brand name has been seen in two forms, one with Baron over Solingen and the second with the Weyersberg flower pot or a presentaion cup with stars coming out of the top.

Here is the Weyersberg Trading mark on my prewar "Baron" made, or marketed, Philippine Constabulary Officer saber.

Orpo

Thanks for the photo, I've never seen that combination before.

Terry,

I have seen two of these early PC swords with this particular marking of the urn of flowers within an oval over "BARON". It seems they used this particular die stamp for these export swords and both etched and stamped markings for other domestic weapons. I have also seen the etched diamond shaped mark on an SA dagger.

E.u.F Hörster is not considered a rare TM but the Horstator version of this company is a a little uncommon. Usually bayonets of the same maker have the same characteristics but as you can see from the attached photos the one TM (without company name) has a smaller cross-guard, and the stud button(not pictured is also different).

Hi! Find this dress bajo with stag grips, only mark is UNIFORMEN-WENDT Ffm, maybe a distributor? don't remeber to have seen it before, any idea of how common it is? thanks in advance

Nacho

I haven't seen one like you have shown during my years of collecting. I do have it in my list of distributors. I was given the name from a fellow collector. Does your bayonet have stag grips.

Terry, Is this Spitzer a common bayo in with a stag grip ?
Thanks.
Serge

Hi Terry! yes it has stag grips

Serge

The Spitzer is fairly common TM it came in two variations (see attached photo. The stag grips on your Spitzer adds a great deal to the value.
Nacho
After seeing your Uniformen-Wendt I got on line and found one for my collection. Your stag grip version very nice.

Congrats Terry! please show it when avavilable, regards

Thanks Terry.

Frisia Solingen trademark by Rich. A. Herder

Shown before, but would like to know if anybody has ever seen another one?

Nacho

Here it is. Nicer than I thought.

Foxart

I have seen a few but have always been a little rough. It is one of many that I don't have

Thanks for showing Terry, is very nice indeed, is the frog marked?

Is this a period TM or ??????? I noticed it is in A. Carters book The Sword and Knife Makers of Germany 1850-2000. It is pictured on page 200 of Vol 1. I can't find it in the text when that TM was used but I always assumed it was post war. Has anyone seen this one before?

Terry:

Fisher's book states that this TM is post war, which is what I owuld have guessed anyway from seeing the use of the word 'Germany' in the TM.

John

A Arthur Evertz Solingen TM isn't rare, but this version is not often seen on a dress bayonet. This one I believe dates around 1938. This one has a single etch.

Gents,

Just wanted to take a moment to say thanks to all of you who've posted your fine bayonets. Rare makers, rare patterns and all top-quality hardware. A great opportunity to check out some first class sidearms ...

Best!

Bill

Here's an AES on a fire bayonet. I've only seen one other of this mark on a fire bayonet & very few on KS98s.

Unit marking on the obverse.

Billy

Nice one, That is the first Firemen bayonet with that TM. Notice it is reversed from mine.

Is the HK marked bayonet a TM or a Distributor mark? There has been speculation on who made these bayonets. I have a couple ideas on this mark.



1. Heinrick Klein--made razor blades under brand names CHRONIK, HK, and HEARTCROWN.

2. Hugo Klein--cutlery, scissors

3. Heinrich Kieffer-- TM HK beneath a mural crown within a double-line oval cartouche and many other TM's which used HK in the mark.

4. Hugo Kind--scissors


Heinrick Klein did use HK as a brand name and Heinrich Kieffer used HK in many of ther TM's

Hey Billy

In the below thread you show a Voos bayonet TM on the obverse side and a Genschow Distributor on the reverse. I always thought distributors as small companys but Genschow was very large. I have never seen a Geco with a Voos TM. I didn't realize at the time of your posting that both marks were on the same bayonet. This has to be one rare bayonet.
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=231819&page=3

Gräwiso--a brandname of Gebrüder Gräfrath, Fabrik feiner Stahlwaren, Solingen Widdert 92

A few of these are around in collections but not many are ever on the market.

Stingray posted a photo of a Rich. Plümacher bayonet on a separate tread that I hadn't seen before.

Billy G. responded

I QUOTE
" Two firsts for me, first time seeing this logo ever & first time seeing Plumacher on a fire bayonet. Very nice piece, good luck to whoever was lucky enough to snag it. I have the mark Terry shows on a standard KS98 but was just holding it for when a decent fire example came along, guess I'll keep waiting."

I am not a specialist of these, but I have not seen many with this maker mark:

Best regards,

Herman

Herman

I love that TM. You are right, In my opinion it is a rare TM. I have one on a short bladed bayonet. Thanks for posting.

Anyone else have one to share.

Hi! This is my long firemen bayonet Rudolf Schimdt marked

Nacho

Nice Bayo, here is a photo of mine. Notice the difference of the position of the TM in relation to the buffer.

Here is a nice TM

Friedrich Koch, Friedrichswerk

I know they produced some Army Officer daggers along with dress bayonets. There TM may have been on some other TR daggers but haven't seen them

Here is another Geco for ya, solinegn stamped


Any other variants of Geco ppl are aware of?

I've only seen 2 Geco variants, this one which is the same stylized logo Sturmbrigade shows, sans Solingen. Based on the picture, I'd say Sturm's example was marked Solingen separately as we see on so many other unmarked examples. This one is an early short model dual marked by Emil Voos.

Here is the other, an etched Geco, Berlin. I believe all Geco marks are quite scarce with this one being less often encountered.

Strum

This has been a great month for adding new Trade, Distributor marks to my list. Thanks for posting your Geco, you have a very nice variation.

I now have 280 Trade and distributor marks with variations recorded.

Here's my GECO marked dress bayo (another variant), regards

I find this bayonet puzzling. With the other variations of this TM that were done at the factory why would this one have there distributor name Geco stamped on the blade after it was plated?

Nacho
Any ideas on this.

Hi Terry! I don't know what to say on this, as the bayo is stored I can't have a look on it now, will try to take out this weekend to make additional photos, indeed is not etched but stamped, as the Sturm & Billy G bayos seems to have the Geco trademark (1st variation) stamped (but the word Solingen seems to be factory made) maybe this distributor use to stamp his own logo on the bayos he sell. regards

Hi Terry! I don't know what to say on this, as the bayo is stored I can't have a look on it now, will try to take out this weekend to make additional photos, indeed is not etched but stamped, as the Sturm & Billy G bayos seems to have the Geco trademark (1st variation) stamped (but the word Solingen seems to be factory made) maybe this distributor use to stamp his own logo on the bayos he sell. regards

Nacho
I also have two of the variations and here are a couple of photos of the two TMs. One does seem to be etched and the other stamped. If you notice the the stamped one has plating in the lower part of the letters. If you notice that when you stamp metal the displaced metal is pushed to the side. If this done prior to plating the raised area can be fixed. The one you have has that raised metal around the letters, so was stamped done post plating. I'm not saying that all bayonets stamped post plate are fakes. There are several authentic bayonets that were stamped post plate. You may be right and that Geco may have stamped some with there name. If we find more like yours with the same font of type it would help.

Hello all,

I have been meaning to ask (and this is probably the right place to do it):
I am always looking for daggers with the rare Paul Seilheimer dog logo.
I managed last year to find a nice stag gripped bayo with that mark.

Is this a rare maker (specifically the dog mark) of bayos?

If anyone has an example, I would love to see them!

Thanks in advance,
Johnny

Johnny V

Here are the three I'm aware of. Of the three the dog version is a little harder to find.

Fantastic!
Thank you!

Hi! Take this new photos, IMO the rivets are clearly unmessed so I guess the mark is period, made at the factory or not I don't know but may this distributor marks himself the blades he sell, also comparing with the 1st Geco mark (Sturm & Billy's bayo) it seems to be stamped as well. Inspected at hand the logo seems to be plated inside the letters, hope the photos put some light on this, best regards

Nacho

I appreciate the new photos of your Geco mark. I took liberty with one of your photos and cleaned it up and drew a line under the name. As you can see the letters aline perfectly. If you are stamping with individual stamps this is almost impossible to do with out a fixture to align the letters plus the space between the letters seem to be correct. And if you are stamping each letter one letter may be stamped heaver or lighter than another. The stamp in my opinion had the complete name on it. The displaced metal on your last photo is very light. With out in hand inspection its hard to say if it was done at the factory or later. But I am leaning towards it being factor stamped.

Thanks for your effort in cleaning and analizyng the Geco mark, seeing it at hand the displaced metal is much less perceptible than in the photos, after your analisys I'm inclined to a late factory stamp

Here is one that Fisher thinks is a Rau and Koch, Messerschmiede. I sent him a photo that appears in his sixth edition. I have seen two or three of these bayonets, the one I own also has a distributor mark (Eckhard, Hanau) on the reverse side. Does any one have a later version of his TM book. I was wondering if he has added any thing to this TM. Has anyone seen this TM on any other TR daggers. I think Eckhard of Hanau were hat makers.

I need help on this one. I know the TM is Herm. Konejung, A.G. Stahlwarenfabrik, Solingen but the Germany at the bottom of the TM probably makes it post war, which for me is still collectable. Has anyone seen this TM on a dress bayonet before,

Terry: Nothing new for Rau & Koch in Fisher's 7th Edition.

We all know the TM ACS, but late in the war is was changed to AWS, this TM is rare on Dress Bayonets. I have only seen photos of this TM on a dress bayonet