UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum sollid red daimonds

Herman,

Did you not read the post from hj research forum ?
opaque enamel has been around as early as 1936 so why are you saying they cant be fitted into hj knifes when they were making them during & after the time period hj knifes were produced,


Quote Metallwarenfabrik
I dont have any problems with it. This maker, and others from the same area, around the same time (circa 1936-8) are known to have used Opaque enamel on their smaller Official party items. (obviously done by an Emaillierfabrik/anstalt en mass) I have seen these described as "..with the very rare tomato red enamel." or "..a scare Opaque version." Both being of course utter rubbish, Opaque enamel can be found on many different small official party items made by a multitude of makers from both Germany, Austria and Sudentenland. Nothing rare or scarce about the Opaque enamel, and nothing out of the ordinary with this badge.


Regards Mac 66.

Ok,let me say this
Over the years,i have seen many HJ with solid diamonds at the shows,and many knives look correct to me,with any damage to the grip or rivets.
I talked about this with my friend DD Harris and he also believe that they are period and i think he is one of the most experienced HJ guy around.


Regards
Stingray

Thanks Stingray,


This is the info i like to hear from a well experienced hj knife collector like yourself & DD Harris,

there is also a few very well experienced guys i have spoke to over the years that have no problems with hj knifes with opaque enamel insignia that dont post on forums because there are people who say items are bad but have no proof to back up there opinions when infact they are genuine which is bad for collecting community & the hobby in general.



Regards Mac 66.

That surprises me, Stingray

And which is the maker(s) of HJ's that used these full red diamands, in your opinion?

I know that DD Harris is selling them, he also sells the "very rare & ugly" diamond, as he calls it. Have you ever seen one?

Personaly, I have never bought from DD Harris: the quality he offers is just not what I expect. And when he has a nice HJ in his offer... his price tends to refect it... a bid too much... But that is just my opinion of course.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,why you surprised?
I'm not only one,who believe they are real,i just say my opinion.
I have seen them always on late war,after 1938 pieces and always without motto.
Logically,if they are fakes,why we don't see them on transitional 1837,1938 knives,which they have same size of the diamond.
IMO they used them after 1939.
And I think that they don't care,back then, if they install full red diamond or regular.

Please,don't talk about someone who is not involved in this discussion.I know lot of dealers,who sell more expensive HJs in same condition.

Regards
Stingray

Stingray,

So in your opinion all the makers of HJ-knifes installed now and then a full red diamond on their knifes produced after 1939?

You brought up DD Harris, not me! so I believe I can reply and share my experiences here.

Best regards,

Herman

Stingray, Herman

I have came across various RZM marked only hj knifes with opaque red daimond insignia so we are taking from 1938 to 1942 period, also keep in mind opaque red enamel has been used in TR badges & pins from 1936 to 1945 by numerous badge makers, so if they were producing hj members pins & hat pins in opaque red enamel they were also producing opaque red hj daimond insignia for fitment into hj knifes, another thing i have noticed that we do not see a lot of hj knifes around with opaque red insignia so not too easy to find, a nice variant to add to your hj knife collection imo.


Regards Mac 66.

Hey Herman
I didn't say that all makers used them.
To me,that only some factories used them.
My question is,did you ever seen transitional 1937-1938 knives with solid red diamond?

Regards
Stingray

Heres a very good untouched/uncleaned hj knife with solid red opaque daimond with good movement that i bought from DD Harris which he purchased from a WW2 US vets son along with german pistol that he brought back from germany, No Damage to the griplates or rivets, just the way it left the Factory,

RZM M7/36 E&F Hörster, Solingen.


Regards Mac 66.

2.

3.

And this is how your very late E&F Hörster HJ-knife looked when it left the factory.

Hope you see the differences and why they are there...

No further comments.

Regards,

Herman

Herman,

Thats the way your 2 M7/36 E&F Hörster hj knifes left the factory with the clear dotted hj insignia,

My E&F Hörster left the factory with the Solid Red Opaque Enamel daimond hj insignia which imo is a genuine period produced daimond & made by the makers of hj members pins & hat pins, evidence will be out in the near future in the form of a book which states these opaque enamel pins/badges were made from 1936 - 1938 so the idea of a 44-45 late war produced solid red daimond is not true as was thought previously.




Regards Mac 66.

Well, we all know about the fakes and errors which are -unfortunately- filling up many reference books...
But what do you want: the business must continue... at all costs! Some people even put their good reputation at stake...

But here are some facts, free of charge :

More than 50 % of all the surviving HJ-knifes had their original diamond lost or broken after the war:

- due to denazification, which was very easy to do on HJ's (compared to SA, SS and all types of army daggers)

- but also because these knifes were very popular for all kinds of praktical usage after the war, so the swast had to be removed!

Due to this shortage of original diamonds, all bad quality knifes lost their original diamond due to "canabalisation" for the restauration of the superior blades, which became collector items.

That is why you find so many fake diamonds or diamonds from HJ-badges in the low end knifes, like the one shown above.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

Same old story with you nothing new to me this info,


you just cant face the facts that the Opaque Daimond is a genuine pin fitted into hj knifes during production at the factory during the period but that will be your opinion till you drop dead, i have put up some good evidence on this forum that they are genuine but you have not proved them to be fake imo,



Regards Mac 66.

Mac,

This is getting funny!

Now it s not only full red, but also "opaque" diamonds which are good in HJ knifes? How about green and blue?

And where do all these "original" diamonds -used to restore bad quality knifes with a missing or broken diamond- are coming from in your opinion?

One good advice: get your latest HJ knife x-rayed and maybe... you might finaly see the light!

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

I see nothing funny about this subject!!!


Opaque Red or commonly known as "Solid Red"

Green & Blue are bogus!! as you know so quit your wise cracks,

Solid Red/Opaque hj daimonds ae coming from the same factories as clear pimpled version hj daimonds

i do not need to get my knife x-rayed as i know its a good period made peice,


Mac 66.

I find your argumentation rather weak, this time, Mac...

You must have "overlooked" the following question:

And where do all these "original" diamonds -used to restore bad quality knifes with a missing or broken diamond- are coming from in your opinion?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman


if they used a genuine hj daimond to repair there knife the daimond would have came from Germany during the period imo

where else do you think they came from ?

I do a lot of research on HJ's, Mac, I keep statistics, from every show I attend to, for many, many years now...

That is how I manage to draw conclusions on features that are typical for certain producers. For instance, the late Hörsters, like shown here, they have unique rivets with very small heads, unlike any other maker! Yours has them to! Many collectors still find them suspicious... but they are 100% OK. Unlike the diamond on your Hörster... it is really not original to the knife... sorry to bring that bad news.

About the 50%:
You would be surprised how many HJ knifes -even minty ones- are surfacing with a missing or damaged diamond... I count them on every show!

On top of that, I add the ones which have an replacement diamond -I do x-ray the knifes ! Lots of original (dagger diamond) replacements! But also many diamonds which were originaly HJ-pins are mounted into quality HJ-knifes!

Now even if the % of lost, original diamonds was much less than the over 50% I observed so far, than there would still be not enough original diamonds (from daggers!) to repair the low end HJ-knifes.
That is why fakes and ex-badges (possibly also full reds...) are used on the crappy HJ's.

Now, is that so difficult to follow and understand?

That was all for today, from my side anyway...

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

you have your own private opinion & i have mine so we will just leave it at that for the time being, i know my knife with solid red is a good period produced peice,i know for a fact that several old time dagger collectors would agree that hj knifes with the period produced solid red daimonds are genuine & have bought them straight from vets in similar condition to mine,, i,m actually fed up arguing with you on this subject.

A few threads from the past on GDC if you havent read them already,

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=168246#Post168246

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=94951&page=1


Mac 66.

all the wishing...Believing...hoping in the world will not make it real

Sepp

GDC 0292 Gold

Sepp,

I do not need to wish anything,

i suppose you have some evidence to support your opinion ?

So if its not a textbook example they are written off as post war, repro ect ?

i,ve asked a lot of questions on this forum & never recieved a straight answer from any you long time dagger & knife collectors, nor have any of you supported your claims that the solid red or opaque daimonds are fake & were never applied into hj knifes.


hj knifes with the solid red hj insignia are very few & far between so i guess this makes collectors a bit confused & wary of them & its very easy just to say there fake or post war when in fact there most likely a scarce variant to find & very likely was only produced for a short period during the early 40s when thay were producing RZM marked only blades with no motto near to the end of hj knife production in 42 imo.

Mac 66.

Mac,

What you are trying to tell the collector community is the following:

At the Hörster factory, now and then a HJ knife assembler said to himself: "This HJ-knife is gonna have a hard time during its lifetime, so I will put in a full red diamond on this one !"

This way, the assembler was predicting that the knife was going to end up as a beater or low end knife for collecting purposes...

Now, the same was happening at many other Solingen blade factories: now end then a full red diamond was mounted, predicting that this particular knife would be abused or damaged...

And this way of producing started as soon as 1936, you seem to believe?

This is just rediculous, Mac!


Or maybe, for you, it does not matter if the diamond is original to the HJ-knife?

If there is a chance that the diamond is a replacement -coming from a period badge- do you consider the HJ-knife to be 100% authentic?

You seem to accept that -due to the shortage of original knife diamonds- badges are used to upgrade crappy knifes?

In that case we have a completely different story!

And I propose to stop this discussion immediately.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,


You think what you like, i have my own opinion on solid reds,

your past statements have no evidence to suggest solid reds are fake so rather than carry on this discussion here on GDC i will leave it at that & not bother youes collectors any more.


Another thing Herman, PLEASE DO NOT THREATEN ME BY PM EVER AGAIN TO CANCEL MY ACCOUNT ON GDC!!


Mac 66.

Our Mac ran out of real arguments...

So he trying to attack the person ...

Sad ending of the "full red" dream...

Too bad some "innocent" collectors got caught up and inspired by this illusion.


And Mac,

Any person who is not following the rules risks to get is account canceled at GDC, not just you!

And for the record: it was not on this topic that you went over the line with your posts and got my warning: it was some weeks ago... but that you forgot to mention here... not too honest of you in my opinion!

It was this one and you got a public warning (in the topic) first!

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=272224&page=2

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

Grow up, this is not over until proven otherwise & you are not the person to discuss this subject with anymore as you have made that very clear by your attitude & foolish remarks, an open mind is what you need when it comes to the solid red daimonds, you do not believe them to be genuine & never will so rather than waste anymore of my time & effort on this forum i,m finished here on this subject, it can go back to a Ghost town forum for all i care, what a bloody place to discuss anything, sad indeed.


Mac 66.

Mac,

You attack my person and seem to be unable to answer my simple questions, so the discussion is over.

I repeat them once more:

Or maybe, for you, it does not matter if the diamond is original to the HJ-knife?

If there is a chance that the diamond is a replacement -coming from a period badge- do you consider the HJ-knife to be 100% authentic?

You seem to accept that -due to the shortage of original knife diamonds- badges are used to upgrade crappy knifes?

Best regards,

Herman

My knife is NOT CRAPPY & i believe it has the origional solid red daimond insignia it was fitted with at the factory during the period, not a badge converted to fit as it has the required movement with no damage to the rivets or the griplates, how many times do i need to repeat myself to you, i do not accept that badges as you say are fitted to crappy knifes so stop trying to put your words in my mouth, Yes 100% Authentic imo.

END OFF.

OK Mac,

That is only a partial answer, but anyone with some brains, who reads the topic, will now be able to conclude that the "full red diamond case" is as hollow as an empty barrell.
That is enough for me for now.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,


I will be back with more evidence in the near future that will rock your negative attitude towards solid red enamel daimonds, These were a period produced hj pin that came in the form of a members pin, hat/cap pin & hj knife insignia, we also see solid red enamel in NASDAP Party pins ect, Various factorys produced them during the TR period.

Until then,




Mac 66.

Hi Guys,

My hj knife with solid red/opaque daimond insignia arrived today & i,m very pleased with the overall condition, i cannot see any tampering damage whatsoever to the rivets or griplates not even a hairline crack on the griplates, daimond insignia has the required movement, i.e springy up & down with side to side movement with that click sound when tapped with my finger just like some of my other hj knifes daimond insignia, the rest of the knife has some aged patina with some greying on the blade that i will gently clean way to preserve the blade from any further decay, the cloth on scabbard runners are still bright white which i was very happy to see, all i can say now is that i believe 100% solid red enamel hj daimond insignia was definetly used during the TR production period but not on the same scale as we see the commonly used clear pimpled hj daimonds therefore imo the solid red/opaque enamel hj daimond is a scarcer type to find on hj knifes.

There will be a book out next year summertime by Jo Rivett that explains everything we want to know about TR badges & pins covering in great detail about the solid red/opaque hj daimonds ect that will answer questions in a more positive light with good solid evidence.

http://s276159374.e-shop.info/shop/p...idG&shop_param


This is all i have to say on this subject for now.




Regards Mac 66.

Are we still talking about that lower quality Hörster?

Again, I have to protect the newer and unexperienced collectors, by adding the following observations:

- What you have is not -as you describe -a rare variant of the HJ-knife, but actually a common late Hörster RZM piece.

- The knife and scabbard are original but in relatively poor condition because they show a lot of rust and wear. Except for the diamond which is clearly a replacement.

- The rust spots look quite fresh, so it could be that someone tried to age the complete knife after replacing the diamond. We see that process quite often applied on knifes which are already of lower quality: some extra rust spots do no harm anymore and make the piece look more authentic!

Best regards,

Herman

Whatever Herman,

i,m finished on this GDC forum & will not be posting here ever again.


Goodbye Mac 66.

He will be back...

Sepp

Sepp.

Yes i,m back just to clear a few things up first as i have put a lot of my time & effort into this thread on solid reds,

@ Herman,i never said my hj knife was a rare variant,

Here are my exact words below,

all i can say now is that i believe 100% solid red enamel hj daimond insignia was definetly used during the TR production period but not on the same scale as we see the commonly used clear pimpled hj daimonds therefore imo the solid red/opaque enamel hj daimond is a scarcer type to find on hj knifes.

The Daimond is NOT a REPLACEMENT on my hj knife!!

Something else for Herman to think about:

It does not make sense for a faker to manufacture a diamond with all the correct attributes including the correct size, thickness, and length of pins, and then do something completely different by leaving out the scaled base of the diamond & change the colour of the enamel from clear red to solid red! I also think that the fake solids we see today were replicated after seeing original solid examples of the type we are discussing.


@ Herman,I will not stand to be interrogated in this way by you on this GDC forum & WAF forum where i offer my opinion on this subject with good hard evidence, you try to make people out as fools with your bad attitude therefore i will not be contributing anymore of my time & energy into this forum.


Collectors can make up there own minds if the choose to Accept solid red daimonds fitted into hj knifes are genuine or not as most are not sheep & have good common sense with an open mind.



Now i,m gone but this subject will continue over on WAF & hj Research forum.



Take it easy,



Regards Mac 66.

Years ago when I first started to go to the shows in Europe and then here, I would advise dealers when they had what was a known reproduction or fake. I was always amazed at the voracity of their responses and their declarations that it was original. I soon stopped trying to keep the shows "clean" and just shook my head at some of the items offered.

The problem we face today is the ease of book publishing. Anyone can put out a book as an expert and they are. We had the old Atwood publications and others. We now have books from Russia listing all the known reproductions as originals or even other countries daggers. And, people will continue to use these to justify their own bad buying decisions and to pass on the fraud to other people. At the same time, they always seem to try and minimize the colloective wisdom of the hobby with personal insults.

My hats off to you Herman, for seeing this through to the end.

But, I suspect we have not heard the last from Mac.

Jim, You are probably right ..... but I could assist in that respect

give up mac,theres nobody more blind than somebody who doesnt want to see (and their disciples), and by the looks of the thread the big boys are being called in to shut you up now

That is all we need, another newby who thinks he knows everything.

When I was in Poland after the fall of the wall. I saw an unbelievable number of Nazi daggers and knives and the one uniform point on all of them was that they were de nazified. It is a well known fact that if you were in the east block, and you had any item with a nazi symbol, you went to jail, serious jail time because Sgtalin was totally paranoid. So all Nazi daggers were denazified in the entire soviet union. Guess what, that was most of the third reich daggers expecially the youth daggers as Hitler sent the Hitler youth to fight. They were all denazified. Where are they now. They have all been restored with phoney insignia as apropriate. they all look to be in the same condition as the poor examples with the solid red we see here.

Apparently, they all went to England and Scotland, where they have been proclainmed to be correct.

That is ok with me. But the fact is they are all suspect and lower grade collectables and collectors need to know they are questionable.

No matter how many friends of Mac come on here to try and insult the legitimate collectors.

By the way, you wouldn't happen to have one of those Ivory gripped presentation daggers would you. I am certain we can still find someone to claim they are original.

stu a. Some people, especially foreigners, do not understand the American's tollerance for free speech. they think they can come on here and say whatever they want and insult whoever they want or make wild accusations. But the fact is, free speech requires responsibility. If a person comes on here and acts iresponsibly, his speech is not protected here. It is irresponsible and usually quite rude.

So, if you want to play here, that is fine. Play nice.