UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Imperial swords

Here's some IOD 89 swords. You know, they're even better than TR ones!

Very nice the top one and the bottom one is fairly hard to find.

Thanks Dow...Unfortunately the Pallasch came without a scabbard but the blade decoration is superb.
The bottom one is from Mecklenburg-Schwerin, with a FF (Friedrich Franz) cypher on the grip.

Nice accumulation. Not my thing, but still nice.

A very nice group of swords. A fairly scarce one, the rounded pommel cap on the top example leads me to believe that it may be a Prussian heavy cavalry dress sword, most likely for an off duty trooper. With the middle two of course being the folding guard version of the Prussian IOD 89. With the also scarce bottom one listed as a Mecklenburg Infantry Officer's Saber (even though it has a straight blade(?). But not having a grip cypher, so that is unusual, and may meaning something. But regrettably not something that comes to mind at the moment. FP

Although I don't collect swords I like them. Very nice!

Danny

Thanks all, for your comments.
The top sword is named to 'Kuraisser Unger' of the von Driessen Westphalia Regt.No. 4.
The bottom sword does have a Cypher...FF...and is the exact sword shown on p. 107 of the 'Infanterie-Offizierdegen 1889' book.

A very nice selection of Imperial IOD style swords. Thanks for showing them.

Here is an interesting variation of the IOD from the time of the Weimar Republic. This one has no grip cypher and has the Weimar eagle on the guard instead of the Imperial one.

Nice! Unusual, too, for that period sword to have a nickel-plated scabbard

Yes, you are right Tristan that the plated scabbard is unusual. Nickeled scabbards are shown during the Weimar Republic Zeit in period catalogs however. This particular IOD sword shown above is an Alcoso Nr.259 and it is shown in their catalog with a two ring scabbard, which was certainly out of date by this time too. Of course, the officer could order whichever scabbard he wanted.

Here is another Weimar Republic period P guard sword with a nickeled scabbard. This one is "1920" property marked making it an official item of issue during this time period.

One more example of an Imperial Train sword with a nickeled scabbard. This one is a private purchase with a nickeled two ring scabbard. Not an IOD mind you but another nickeled scabbard from the Imperial time period.

George, Those are also some very nice swords.

There is no question that the bottom sword has the �FF� cypher. With what I was referring to being a period catalog which shows no cypher, with Prussia having a grip cypher. With my sense of it being that here is no problem, just the need for a little more research as to the reason or reasons why.

The K�rrassier officer�s model posted here has a nickel plated scabbard (not pictured). With the inspiration for the design of course being the Preu�ischer K�rrassierpallasch M 1817 next to it. Best regards to all, Fred

There are some nice Imperial swords around! Any more?
This IOD has a Garde Star on the grip.

Tristan,

Thanks for starting this Imperial sword thread. You IOD with the Guard Star in the grip is very nice indeed. I have a couple of other variations that I can show.

Fred,

I understand your question about the grip cyphers and I don't really know the answer either. However, here is another interesting IOD from what I think is the Weimar Republic Zeit. This one has a celluloid grip without a cypher in the same manner as the first one I showed has a leather grip without a cypher. If you look closely at the guard of this one you will notice that the Wilhelm II cypher is missing from the chest of the eagle as well. This all seems very deliberate to me since the sword was made this way and the cypher seems to have been removed from the die or it was removed from the guard during manufacture. I take this to indicate that this particular IOD was made after the end of WWI. The NCO Troddel came on the sword when I got it and has been there for a very long time so I left it not really knowing if this was an Officer or NCO sword during the period of use.

George

Very nice. Interesting to note, too, that the WKC logo has changed from the Imperial WK&C

Thank you. This IOD appears to be their WKC Nr.2 "Infantrie-Offizier-Sabel mit Scharnier" from their postwar catalog. Interesting that they call it a Sabel even though it is in fact a Degen. The Scharnier (hinge) refers to the folding guard of course and their Nr.2 does not have a grip cypher or a cypher on the breast of the eagle on the guard. The cut does show the standard plain double fullered straight blade but other cuts show the single fuller like on the one shown.

George, Another very nice sword As to how the sword was made without a cypher - I'm going to make a guess that the parts were sand cast. And that if the master patterns were "re-purposed" to be used for Weimar era swords. That it would have been fairly easily to remove a cypher and feather the eagle's breast from the pattern for series production. As for the knot (as I think you already know) they and the Weimar era swords are not a specialty of mine so I defer to your expertise.

But with the Imperial era swords I like to think that I have something of a little better understanding. With the officer�s model swords also being carried by senior grade NCO�s (Unteroffiziere). With the top example in brass from a Garde regiment. And the Kriegsmodell IOD 89 in steel possibly an airship formation, although that is not a forgone conclusion, as I need to do some more research. Best Regards, Fred

Fred,

I am certain that you are correct that NCOs also wore these IOD swords. I know that early Prussian Police regulations allowed both Police NCOs and Officers to continue to wear the military swords that they wore during WWI. Regulations also allowed them to wear their old knots so I don't know why Reichswehr regulations would be any different.

Here is another distinctive IOD variation for the Prussian Land Gendarmerie. These swords were an item of issue and this one has matching property markings on the guard and the scabbard. This one is from the Imperial Zeit but they continued to be worn after 1918 with the removal of the cypher in the grip. The Gendarmerie was considered to be a part of the military but was staffed by lifetime appointed Beamte (Officials). These LG Beamte became Feldgendarms during wartime.

Always liked the IOD 89 and enjoying everyones' posts.

Here are two more variations of this model.

First, a IOD89 w/lionhead. Has WII cyphers. Not sure if this lionhead variation was for a special branch or just a special purchase. Made by Clemen & Jung (shield/Z). Any information appreciated.

Next is a short IOD89 style w/etched 24" blade. Believed to be for Fahnentr�ger (flagbearers). Sorry, no scabbard- although I believe it was probably leather w/brass fittings. Again, any information is appreciated. Last photo is, obviously, a comparison w/ a "standard" length IOD89.

Foxart...Very nice swords. Yes, the Fahnentrager scabbard was leather with brass fittings top and bottom, the top one with a stud I presume to carry a leather belt attachment.
The engraving work on the other C & J IOD is superb!
I have a Clemen and Jung Sachsen IOD, with the AR cypher and the 'Eisenhauer' on the blade.

Foxart,

Two very nice IOD variations. I could not find a similar lion head example in my manufacturer catalogs but I know that the Bavarians were very fond of adding lion head pommels to their various swords. The short private purchase Fahnentrager is outstanding. These short IODs were also worn by Reichsgendarms in the Reichslande.

Tristan,

I presume you are also interested in showing other Imperial sword variations, such as your Sachsen IOD. Very nice BTW. The Sachsen swords have been difficult to find IMHO but seem to be more available after the fall of the wall. Here is another Saxon variation for Officers of the Imperial Sachsen Polizei. The P guard hilt is solid nickel-silver and the blade is a pipe back. The distinctive green & Silver knot is for Sachsen Beamte.

ORPO...Silver swords look great...is this the one from Wittmann's site?
Further to the Weimar swords you posted earlier here is a page from 'Infanterie-Offizierdegen 1889' by Hartmann & Herrmann, showing one with an eagle cypher.

Tristan,

Not Whittmann's site sword but one, made by Eickhorn, that I have had for a long time. The Sachsen Polizei used these silver swords in a varitey of ways. The one above is a private purchase for Officers. However, they also made a short sword for NCOs that was an item of issue. Here is an Imperial example of the Sachsen Polizei NCO short sword by Luneschluss. It is Imperial crown/letter inspected and property marked.

The Saxon Police also shortened some of these short swords and modified the hilts during the time of the Weimar Republic or the NS Zeit. They mirror the modifications made to the long Prussian Seitengewehre in that they had the hilts modified and the blades and scabbards shortened to the same uniform length as those of the Prussian Police. The modification shown is also an Imperial inspected short sword by Luneschluss. They did the same thing to the short Saxon Patrolman swords with straight blades and plain P guard hilts.

For some reason the file manager did not pick up the first photo of the short sword. Here it is.

You have some very interesting items! Thanks for the photos and info.

You are certainly welcome. I specialize in police swords but I collect military swords as well. I thank you for starting this topic on Imperial swords sice they are often rather obscure and I certainly learn something new whenever I see one that I have not come across before.

I thought I would wrap up with a couple of more Imperial Saxon Police swords including a Sachsen Justiz short sword and a couple of long P guard swords. One of the long swords was issued to the Saxon Police of Leipzig and the other to the Saxon Gendarmerie. These issue long swords were worn by mounted policemen.

Nice swords.

Question re: Sachsen Police-

Acquired the following short sword years ago with the story that it may be Sachsen Prison Officials. Never had any proof of this attribution.

Anybody know exactly what this is?

Thanks for your input.

And, since we're posting Sachsen sword types, here is something in a little different direction, a Sachsen Galadegen/Hofdegen.
MOP grip plates with blue & gold ethced blade. Somewhat less encountered than the comparable Bavarian and Prussian Galadegen.

That's a pretty sword!

Mikee.

Thanks.

German court swords probably deserve a thread all their own. As you may agree, they can be pretty glitzy on a totally different level than even some of the most embellished military models.

Foxart,

Two very nice Saxon swords! The Saxon Prison sword is very similar to the Justiz Official's short sword except it had a lion head pommel. Your sword looks more like a Civil Sachsen Beamte sword to me. They were also worn in a frog but had the narrower etched blade rather than the wide plain blade.

Orpo

Thank you for the comments and that information.

I was under the impression that Beamte swords were all the longer court sword-size degens(similar to the second sword- Galadegen- I showed above).

But the shorter, heavier blade hangers (similar to the first sword I posted) could also be Beamte??

Sorry to belabor the point, just want to be clear.

Thanks.

You are not belaboring the point and please don't think that I am the final word on this. However, all Civil Service Officials (Beamte) swords show some similarities and many policemen and Justice Official were Beamte as well. Having said that, so-called Court Swords were also worn by other Officials and most Beamte swords varied by rank (pay groups) within the Civil Service so there is a lot of variation even within each organization.

So, yes the short swords could also belong to Beamte but typically lower rank or pay grade. In the case of Saxon Polizei/Gendarmerie, patrolman swords were rather plain while NCOs wore fancier swords, and Commissioned Officers wore long swords. Of course mounted policemen also wore long swords but they were the plain P guard swords that I showed. The Saxon Police also often wore silver and gold color swords depending upon assignment and this is the same with the Bavarians, etc... (all Beamte) for the most part.

Here is a photo of a Saxon Gendarm (who were lifetime appointed Beamte) wearing a short sword taken from a Police School Manual on arrest and self defense techniques.

Orpo

Thank you.

Really appreciate the information/clearification.

BTW, cool pix.

Here is one of my Prussian beauties....

Ritterkreuz

Very nice conditioned state model (Staatsbeamten) Prussian Galadegen. That eagle-head design is simply over-the-top.

Thanks for showing.

Yes, very nice. Now I see where the TR Diplomatic dagger gets its pedigree from.

Here's an interesting 1915 dated sword. It came with a Bavarian knot (although the coloured core is not blue, but a reddish colour, and thelanget is Bavarian shaped so I preume it is for a Bavarian Oficer.
The blade is engraved for the 3rd Officer Aspirants course in June-July 1915 at the Lockstedter Camp in Schleswig-Holstein. There are the names of 5 Leutnants engraved on the cross-piece:
Koppe
Dr. Meyer
Preising
Berthold
Menkhaus
The obverse langet has the initials RS or SR and the date of 1915, and the reverse has O.A.A.K. Lockstedter Lager.
I have tried to research this piece but am new to this so any help would be much appreciated.

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