UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum RAILWAY WATER PROTECTION DAGGER

Hey guys, I would like to know your opinion about this dagger water Railway Water Protection Police dagger . I think it is original, but I'm not familiar with this type of daggers. Thank you very much in advance...

The only accepted versions I have seen of these, in hand and in pictures, have been silver, not gold coloured.

John

John, I understand what you say but this statement does nothing in reference to the originality or otherwise of the dagger. IMO, I would not have logic to back the dagger so perfect and error in the color of the paint. Thank you very much for your opinion

" A continuing controversy exist among German edged weapon collectors concerning the existence of an original gilt fineshed model"

I found this explanation in the book "German Daggers of world war" on page 830, the author Thomas M. Johnson ...

Check Craig Gottleib's site I think he has one for sale.

I know Fred Steven has been extensively researching these and has evidence to support them being original.
Although I often strongly disagree with many of his theories I would like to hear his thoughts on this dagger.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Craig's for sale item is silver, not gold.

John

Hi John!
I know, and it is the gold ones that Fred is studying.
Best Wishes,
BOb

Well, hopefully Fred is a regular of this forum and can give us your valuable opinion on this dagger. Thank you very much for all you guys, you doing this to be the best forum in the world of daggers

Bueno Fred Steven, espero que me digas que te parece....se que es muy rara pero me gusta mucho.....toni

Sr.Solinge88, that you are in gold ..... pronunciarannn few people!! but surely there are professionals in this forum! wowww!! gold

I also would like to see Fred's 'supporting evidence'.

-serge-

Mr. Fred Steven Well we are 2 and we would like to see your supporting evidence; .... Spain is Europe ..... thanks in advance. Toni

If anyone knows Fred it would be nice if they informed him of this thread.
Hasta Pronto Amigos!
Roberto

This dagger this last year in Kassel and anyone who saw it live and direct the bad ... got it for only one that wanted to buy it (but it costs a lot) said he did not buy it because it was golden ..
Anyone know if Eickhorn In the catalog had the power obcion buy in Dorado finish ??
Anyone know weights and measures of this dagger ?? One skilled !! thanks Toni

After three thousand visits, nobody has been able to reach any conclusion.


I noticed the dagger Craig Gottlieb seems that in the part near the rings off the scabbard, there is a very clear golden color that could deal with the first layer of gold paint.

Only is an opinión...

I do not believe in the existence of a period original, neither "silver" nor "gold". I know it was offered for sale in the Eickhorn 1938 Kundendienst, but so was a Diplo' dirk. Jmo.

Remember the old saying .. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Mr. Barry says that you never existed according to this dagger? on which it relies to make this statement ?.
Mr. Damast you just put a phrase (that mean you also have no knowledge of this dagger ??

We must never confuse knowledge with wisdom. The first serves to make a living; Wisdom helps us to live.
(Sorcha Carey)

I would like the knowledge of someone who does know something about this dagger ..
Greetings and thank you very much

I usually value the opinions based on knowledge ... Therefore, I will continue believing in Thomas Johnson or Thomas Wittman who haven't doubt about the existence of this dagger.

That is the beauty of these forums.. Why did we not just say this all up front..It would have saved time.. If the two Toms think that they made GOLD Railway protection daggers (therefore they are real) Way are we posting here at all. Well I asked a higher power Yes guys even a higher power than the dagger grand master And his reaction is in the picture below.. He gave it a thumbs up!
Having a little fun
I find many(competent) collectors have spent much time and money gaining KNOWLEDGE in there collecting field. That is way some keep there WISDOM to themselves. (James Brown)

Jim,

Best to leave politics out of this. The subject is interesting and worth pursuing.

Season's Greetings,

Dave

Who is selling the gold one?

Well ,Dave I could have posted the Pope with thumbs up or for that fact any other person I guess.
yes, it is worth pursuing. But sounds like judgement has already been made.

From what I see in this photo of the pommel, it looks to me that there was wear in this part, then the coating was applied.
I for one do believe in Gold General Daggers, however this one would not be for my collection.

This goes well guys, Bary dont belive that the water protection daggers exist and Serge belive that this daggers existed, even the golden,Damast talk about other things, Fantastic!!!

All opinions are welcome, I think that is very interesting topic.

Another photo

More photos

Hello SOLINGEN88, do you want to buy this dagger or have you already bought this dagger?
Regards,

No sir, this dagger is from my friend and at first just want to know if it is original or not.

Regards

May I ask how your friend did get this dagger?
Regards,

Hi Wotan, the dagger comes from the collection of the granfather off my friend, unfortunately, this person died years ago. His grandson is trying to put things in order.

Regards

SOLINGEN88, thank you for your fast and detailed reply. I thought there would be at least some knowledge about the dagger from the source where it is coming. Now I understand that there isn´t any - any more.
As you already have noticed, this model dagger is highly controversial, some points already have been touched. The members which did contribute to this thread, eg JohnZ, RFI, Bary_Brown, DAMAST - just to name some of them, are experienced and advanced collectors. Their opinions, even when controversial, should be valued and appreciated, at least I do so.
Even very rare daggers as eg. the watercustom dagger can be found in period pics. But there is no pic (up to now to my best knowledge) which shows this RRWPP dagger. There ia also no written source (beside the EICKHORN list) concerning this dagger. These could be small hints (no proof) that this dagger never was produced.
In the early days I did proof that, if it was ever produced by EICKHORN, it would have been produced in a gold finish. This thread, as most threads with valuable knowledge at GD.C, is gone to time and I will not repeat the proof.
Concerning the dagger from your friend: It is double hard to do statements on such a dagger only from pics but because of certain features (sorry, no I will not reveal them) I personally tend to believe that the dagger is no original one. Perhaps an inspection by an experienced collector (not me) could change this opinion which is based just on your pics here.
Just my personal opinion, regards,

Wotan Hi, I see you're a brave person who have interest in finding the truth, gesture that honors you.

Well, referring to question if this daggers existed or not, of course I accept the discrepancies, but if we say that there never was this dagger, are questioning the honesty of many authors of books about the this dagger. I telling Thomas Wittman and Thomas Johnson, but I could tell more than half a dozen.

If we doubt the real existence of this dagger, maybe we should delete the wording of this section MISC DAGGER FORUM, LAND AND WATER CUSTOMS, not you.

If we doubt the existence of this dagger, we question the honesty of all dealers that have for sale this dagger.

I'm willing to put all necessary pictures to try to clarify the truth, it's my only motive.

Again, the dagger is not mine and I haven't commercial interest, my only interest is talking about this dagger is an original piece of the Third Reich or not, honestly, I think is the main mission of this formidable discussion forum.

Just my personal opinion, regards.



Come on guys, the discussion is open, all opinions are welcome

I think it's natural for collectors to be squeamish with such a dagger considering the prohibitive cost, relative rarity of period info/documentation on the dagger & the simple fact that this model dagger can be effectively constructed from mostly period parts of other dagger models.

I'm not impugning the motives of any dealer selling such an item, per se, but dealers in a general sense would have a monetary motive to sell such an item. After all, there is some well intentioned speculation that the dagger, while appearing the Eickhorn catalogue, was never actually put into production or issued.

There will always be detractors when there is a scarcity (or complete lack) of period documentation. Perhaps some period pics will surface, or an article, or a reference in something other than a commercial catalogue, but for now, this item will always be a source of controversy. Such questions keep the hobby interesting since it's obvious we don't know all there is to know.

There are two such for sale right now... both are silver versions, both Eickhorns.

John

The statement above is so true as there is unpublished documents out in private collections..
Weitze is selling what he calls a Gold one also.

How many have been seen so far?

CG's website says the current one is the third he has handled.

The silver version I am sure is legitimate, I am not speaking of one specific example but that type of dagger. The gold version I have no opinion either way. I have heard of silver examples having veteran purchased, rare but it has come from reliable sources.

Ironic but locally I was offered a gold RWPP dagger maybe a week ago. Didn't get to see it in hand but had just general misgivings about it based on the gilt finish.

It's just a thought, I see three daggers of this type for sale in known dealers, 2 are silver and one gold,. However, I see that the silver, there are indications in the most protected parts of the dagger, which retain their golden hand, near the rings of the sheath and the top of the scabbard.

Billy, who was offering?

"88" - yes, I saw that lightly golden tone on CG's dagger. I believe that to be toned lacquer, because the dagger shows no signs of aggressive cleaning ... which I think would be necessary to get all the rest of the gold off.

While this dagger that exposes Solingen88 had in his hands the last winter in Kassel Mr. Marcus and Mr. Weitze more Mr. Thomas M. Johnson. They could give their opinion since been examining the dagger in question ..
Is that the catalog Eickhorn had the option of gold and indeed the side of the sheath It is silver .... Well I hope you continue to comentarior of experts and thank you very much in advance

Back in '86, when I was putting my first calendar together, I was offered a photo of all three Railway daggers. One was gold, so I didn't want to use it. Then I was assured by dealers who had much more experience than I that this particular dagger was original. So for those of you who have a copy of the '87 calendar, take, a look at it.

Dave,

It was locally, a collector who has many high end items that's needs to liquidate some due to a divorce. Not that I was in a position to buy such an item but honestly, the color did put me off.

I think a very important fact in my opinion, is in Original image of the Reichsbahnschutz dagger, together with that of the Reichsbahn-Wasserschutz Polizei dagger,
as shown in the Eickhom Kundendienst.

Obviously the color is different, there is only one silver, the Reichbahnschutz and Reichsbahn-Wasserschutz appears darker

Perhaps, GOLDEN???

The dagger in the (ORIGINAL) picture is absolutely silver.

Interesting !!! Would be important to get this photo.

In  Mr. Frederick J. Stephens report , this photo is contained in Eickhorn Kundendienst

However, I can be wrong, of course

Here is a period letter from E u. F Hoerster offering its line of edged weapons etc for the Railway Police. The Bahnschutz dirk with hangers and portepee are itemised, but interestingly there is no listing of a seperate dagger for the RWP section.

(My thanks to collector/researcher Doug Gow of NZ for this doc.)

Here are some original pictures (used to print the catalog) with the (original Water color artwork) for the cover of the catalog... (I posted this picture on the forum 7 years ago..) part of my catalog and paperwork collection.

Barry cool Horster paper..

First, I would like to thank you for the interest in this topic, as Barry never existed the Railway Water dagger and according Damast existed, but only his silver version


Of course, there are two interesting documents, however, as evidence is inconclusive. That is an order of Horster not appear the railway water dagger does not mean that never existed. We all know that the most important manufacturer of this type of daggers was Eickhorn.

The other photos of the catalog Eickhorn, perhaps have a greater probative value, but not conclusive in my view, that all the changes are not included in these catalogs.



Still, there are two questions in the air,

  1- Were there really daggers Railway Water Protection


2- If we take for good the existence of such daggers were only silver or silver and gold.

Gentlemen, the discussion is still open in my opinion.

Some of these questions are answered in upcoming reference , with to date unpublished factory documents. http://www.eickhorn.com/
I find many(competent) collectors have spent much time and money gaining KNOWLEDGE in there collecting field. That is way some keep there WISDOM to themselves. (James Brown)
I have tried to give a hint on what is really known about this dagger but I guess you will have to wait to see it in print..
I have been working on doing this for years and it is starting to come together.. I have had sort of a crossroads the last year or so but I really still enjoy the hobby..I have had many collectors tell me I should do something Frederick Stephens also (since his name was used in the above post) ..
Regards: James
http://www.eickhorn.com/

I tried to post a photo of a set of Railway Water Protection Police hangers I purchased off Ebay a few years ago but for some reason I can't get it loaded. Anyway, after buying these hangers for the princely sum of $45.00, tried to sell them. It proved much harder than I thought it would be. Eventually a dealer friend of mine sold them to another dealer who had already turned me down based on condition.

Maybe this time it will work.

Brian !!! Your Friend must of given a COA...
Just a little Fun!!

I don't think he did, but I'm sure the buyer added these to a dagger and included them on a new COA.

I think it was wrong section, there is a section called Edged Weapons accountrements in this forum, or perhaps, should be included in the hobby humor corner or clowns.

Mr. Damast your link does not work you can check it? thank you

Well Brian I guess we are Clowns..
That is the beauty of forums people of many collecting levels can post here and ask for free information be it right or WRONG!!
I find many not all people who post some of this stuff do not even own many reference books on daggers. I show you period material and you do not understand even what you are looking at.
And of course there is a language barrier here also. As in my post it is plain as day that I'm working on a new project, reference, Document,book what ever you want to call it..This is way the link says COMING SOON. You will have to buy this reference book when complete..
People spend $25,000.00 + on daggers or try to sell daggers like this real or not and they do not even have the basics of reference,basic period catalogs or there reprints.. There is no excuse for this..Buy good reference books and catalogs!! As I can tell a few posting here have none or maybe a few and you know who you are..
And then you call Brian and I clowns.

I do respectfully disagree with a few posts that the educated collectors have on this thread. The above statement on my soap box is not directed at them.
As far as Gold daggers paper documents none have surfaced to my knowledge. So does that mean they did not make one? I can tell you the one pictured above is not one of them..

Mr. Damast, I could put a rough copy of all false daggers selling on E-bay, just have argued that doing this does not seem a serious argument.

I only said that this practice does not seem a serious argument, rather it is a comic plot.

I think anyone who put a dagger in this forum for analysis, then go up all the bad copies on the market to try to discredit the piece.

Clown is this technique, not you.

Gentlemen, we could restart this issue seriously and concentrate on the initial theme, the analysis of this dagger

Dear Sir:
I am typing slowly so maybe you'll understand why I posted the photo of the hangers. I assumed that with the dagger being as rare as it is that the hangers would be even more rare. I also thought that they were related to the dagger in question and that collectors might like to see them. I guess I was wrong, silly me.

Using your line of thought, if I had written proof of the existence of such a dagger, I should post it in the documents forum and not here.

OH well, it's back to the three ring circus for me.

Brian Rich

think you're right, I see this dagger exactly like one that is for sale, not the color, but appears to have a silver background

Well guys, I see no product reviews more about this special and much sought dagger. I think it would be time to give each of us our finding or opinion. If you want kids myself I start giving my opinion on the dagger in question. Thank you all for sharing the knowledge that everyone has. Regards Toni

Well It Began I to give my conclusion:
Sr.Solingen See that anybody to been able to contribute any proof to be able to say that the daga that you exposes was false.
( They do not cost the photos of photocopies to white and black framed neither a letter of purchase of another manufacturer put that the manufacturer that are studying is Eickhorn
What if we know was that in the catalog of Eickhorn habia the obcion Gold ... In fact all those that have seen have even visible strokes gold that over time seem to have disappeared ..
I repeat that it is my conclusion and the fotografias that you contributes are equal or better even and this in better been his that those that have seen on sale by the web...
Only say him ... That ... HAPPINESSES!! For possessing this piece and thank you very much for having taught and have opened this thread...
A greeting
Toni

Really nobody will pronounce taking evidence on the table ??
Well you'll have to leave your conscience. A gentlemen greeting

Mr. Damascus .... I pray that when your opinion ... elsewhere ..... professional opinions daggers like this .... How many have you had in your hands? .....

I'm late to the discussion, but as they might say, better late than never. In Atwood as the so-called 1st Model Railway dagger, it has been as of this September discussed at some length with the aid of a documentation specialist, and been found to have no period basis. With a primary "expert" in favor of the gold 'Water Protection' examples - none other than the late James Atwood and maybe some of his cronies. With the gold General Officers daggers discussed in the not too distant past also with no basis - but there is evidence in regulations for a specific type of gold hanger for the Army/Luftwaffe. Many often mistaking a gold colored zinc chromate in period use as a preventive layer to try and prevent a type of corrosion on zinc. With what looks like zinc chromate seen next to the bands on some of the daggers that are now for sale that did not wear off because it was protected by the bands.

Agreeing with Damast that with the image from the 1938 Eickhom Kundendienst it's proof there is no way that the dagger pictured is gold. And using the net sum zero technique from the 1st Model discussion - agreeing with Barry (and others) that while it's in the Eickhorn Kundendienst, that by itself is not conclusive. Because there should also be some period proof that it was actually commercially manufactured. Best Regards, Fred

Mr. Fred , I understand that says no models in this gold dagger ? ( in all the internet are ... Price : 48.000 € ) ... I understand also that the catalog Eickhorn .... This in black and white? or is hot ..... wonder why I understand your answer ... but I do not understand anything at all .... They have not contributed anything in my modest opinion that exclude this dagger original ..... greetings