UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Opinions please on SS RZM 7/14

I would appreciate all comments on this SS RZM 7/14. Is it authentic and in original condition?

Thanks in advance for your comments.
Ed

Another interesting "transitional" example. The guards, eagle and scabbard fittings look like they are solid nickel-silver. The pommel nut is plated. The scabbard finish is difficult to evaluate from the photos. It could be paint over a blued type, or could be factory-painted.. Nice blade. Looks like an original dagger to me. Probably made in late 1937 or 1938. As always, photos don't tell the whole story.

Grumpy,

Thank you for your opinion and feedback. I appreciate it.

Ed

The motto looks to be too far away from the crossguard should be around 25mm it looks more also not sure why the patination on the scabbard fittings and eagle isn't evident on the crossguards which look like the ones with accentuated grooves normally associated with early period Eickhorn daggers my thoughts are it is a parts dagger made up of period parts but possibly with a repro blade

A J makes some good points. The fittings do look like they could be "Eickhorn." The scabbard throat is thicker than most, also an "Eickhorn" characteristic. It could be the blade and pommel nut were fitted to "Eickhorn" parts. I suspect they came together and are the later configurations. The question is when was the assembly made. Small dagger producers usually bought parts from larger producers, so it is possible most of the parts were purchased new from "Eickhorn" or another maker. The main key here, I think, is the blade. I would like to see the tang and know the length and width of the blade to better understand it. I will say, from the photos, the blade shoulders appear to be nearly a perfect fit to the lower guard and the blade appears to have what may or may not be authentic age and wear. Again, photos don't tell the whole story.

Grumpy,

Why are you terming this a transitional dagger? I think that is a definition reserved for daggers with both an RZM mark and a makers mark. It is an RZM dagger.

And I am not sure I understand your remarks above. "could be" and "fitted to" and ""Eickhorn" or another maker". ??? And some blade tangs have markings others do not.

And, ETF, that dagger looks exactly as I would expect.

Dave

Dave, your definition of "transitional" is certainly an acceptable one and is often used. I also apply the term to daggers that were produced during the transitional period and have parts from the earlier and later periods, as produced by the factories. In this case, assuming the dagger is factory original, my definition would include the plated pommel nut and RZM blade fitted to earlier fittings, even though the blade shows no "double trademark." I'm not all that concerned with tang markings, although they can be pertinent. My concern here would be to ensure the tang conforms to originals and shows no signs of being a reproduction, as seen on the "Reddick" blades, for example. "Could be" means exactly that. As stated above, and as is well-known, a hands-on examination and, for me, disassembly, would lead to a more confident and precise conclusion as to what the dagger is about. Even then, opinions could vary. Because the fittings are earlier and are strongly "Eickhorn" in appearance, and that the blade bears no such marking, it seems certain the manufacturer would have obtained the fittings and scabbard from "Eickhorn" or, to be broader in possibilities, from some other maker.

My opinion...everything about dagger looks good, from photos provided. Obviously patina from scabbard fittings does not match crossguards but could be from cleaning dagger and not scabbard as lower crossguard to scabbard throat looks good. Transitional RZM pieces, in my collecting experience are those RZM pieces having nickle silver fittings and painted scabbards..I purchased my first SS dagger many, many years ago an stone mint RZM PDL from Chuck Scaglione and he termed it a "transitional" dagger as did all the "Big Boys" AN RZM dagger having very high quality and early maker manufacturing charactoristics......I agree with Grumpy's terminology as it applies here. Others are double trademark pieces and not transitional. Transitional relates to the switch from maker marked production to RZM control...in my opinion. These pieces are exemplified by the charatoristics forementioned, usually manufactured in 1935. cheers to all...Ryan

I also concur that late period RZM/trademark marked pieces produced in 37,38 are referred to as transitional pieces. As with district marks, opinions, views on what constitutes a "transitional" piece have also changed over the years.....A nice dagger in any event. cheers

Ryan and Grumpy,

I think if you ask around, you will find that the term "Transitional", when applied to SA/NSKK/SS daggers, refers to the fact there are both an RZM code mark and a makers mark, NOT to the fact that there there are a mixture of both early and late parts.

My original point to Grumpy was that using the more accepted definition of "Transitional" would be of more help to a beginner to a beginner seeking advice .... unless he explained what his definition meant.

That dagger seems to be exactly what I would expect to see. The RZM trademark is correct and correctly placed.

Regards,
Dave

To each his own, Dave. I wouldn't know what else to call a factory dagger with early and late parts other than "transitional." As noted, I totally agree with your observation. However, I just believe in an expanded definition of "transitional."

Looks like an honest dagger to me . As already noted the patina doesnt match from dagger to scabbard . Not that big a deal.

Hi Dave, no issues here and you are correct.....the definition of a transitional SS dagger accepted today is as you state. Grumpy is also correct, back in the day his discription is what constituted a transitional SS for many collectors. I have viewed a transitional in these terms since 1982. For me (only) a maker marked/RZM is a "double proof marked dagger" a transitional is the Dagger composed of early nickle silver production and early craftsmanship and the advent of the RZM.......cheers

P.S. I don't "ask around" in the SS dagger hobby...I have owned many and handled hundreds...I have seen many good RZM anomolies that were said to be fake back in the 80s and 90s that are now accepted by the collecting cmmunity....remember when no one would touch RZM of any kind SA or SS? I remember guys turning their noses at mint RZM SA for $100 to $150 and RZM SS for $450.........The 2 big boys and the "collecting community" said that SS acceptance stamps went as high as Roman numeral 9, even though no one ever saw or owned one...for me always Distrbution stamps I to III....I am an individual and what constitutes a "transitional SS" for me I have already stated....what constitutes yours and others criteria is up to you....cheers