Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
#259949 02/18/2012 07:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
janjan Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
Hi
I have read a lot of diffrend oppinions on the sollid red HJ daimonds.
Are they late war productions or fake.

janjan #259957 02/18/2012 09:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
janjan, i believe they are genuine period daimonds & have owned several hj knifes fitted with solid red daimonds with the required movement & have owned a few hj cap solid red daimonds but theres always people who think there post war, have a read at this thread on the WAF.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490941&highlight=solid+red+daimonds

Mac 66 #259971 02/18/2012 11:02 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Hello Jan,

As stated so many times by now, these "full red" diamonds are not original to the HJ knifes:

I have seen hundreds of late HJ's, dated 1940, 1941 and 1942 (the last year of HJ knife production) by all of the makers. Never a knife that was in great condition had a "full red" diamond.

Unlike for other unusual features (like for instance the late period plastic hanger which is typical for Kaldenbach's, RZM M7/72 marked HJ knifes), not a single maker can be identified for having used the full red diamond: these fake inlaids end up on all kinds of knifes by different makers, most often on pieces that are already in bad shape.

Some owners of "full red" diamond HJ knifes may which to believe what ever they want... but here, at the HJ forum of GDC, we are strict when it comes to authentication: we need proof!
And believe me, when it comes to "full red" diamond HJ knifes, there is not any to be found!

Few people seem to know that many HJ knifes with a correct, "dotted red" diamond also have a replacement diamond. That is because a lot of the knifes got denazified after the war. So in the best case, the diamond of a HJ pin was used as a replacement. That is why sometimes the diamond is too large for the cutout: early knifes had a smaller diamond, which is touch to find in the "pin" version...

Many bad condition HJ knifes however ended up with the "full red" diamond for obvious reasons...

Best regards,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
janjan Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
Hi Herman

You are writing about the RZM7/72
I se a many different MM on this RZM mark
Is this one original?

m 772.jpg (94.45 KB, 672 downloads)
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Herman, the only proof i have is in the Thread we were discussing on the WAF & you can see a Solid Red daimond in the flesh that Bob1 posted that imo is genuine, Raymond posted 2 nice hj knifes with Solid Reds that have the wiggle or required movement so there not glued in post war, there is always something that you yourself dont know about as an hj knife collector but i have an open mind when something thats not "textbook" & looks right has a very good chance of being genuine, maybe one day we will find more info on solid red daimonds or find a minty knife with a wiggley solid red daimond inserted nicely into the griplate wink

please dont forget there are reproduction solid reds as well but there quite easy to identify!!

Any other members on GD.com got any info or opinions to add on Solid Reds??


Regards Mac 66

Mac 66 #260031 02/19/2012 05:04 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Jan,

The makers mark is unusual for Kaldenbach so I would need to see the knife in hand to make a clear judgement.

Mac,

The wiggling of a diamond is absolute no guarantee of its originality to the knife: it is only a good indication... but that is when it is has the correct "dotted red" diamond of course.

Best regards,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Herman, its a good idea to keep an open mind when it comes to things we cant explain or prove until further evidence surfaces imo, take a close look at the solid red daimond BobI posted on the WAF thread & study it as its definetly a hj knife daimond made to fit into the griplate & NOT a cap pin.

Regards Mac 66 smile

Mac 66 #260069 02/20/2012 12:00 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Mac,

Please don't restart the same discussion we already had on WAF over here.

A picture of a dirty "full red" diamond is really not any proof. How does a diamond becomes that way? Certainly not by sitting in the grip of a HJ knife...

Best regards,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Herman, i never said it was solid proof as i only asked you to study the daimond BobI posted.

I guess this discussion on solid reds is now over on here on your precious GDC hj forum so i,ll just pack up my bags & move on outta here & go have a look in the For Sale Section for a wee bargain maybe??

No wonder this place is like a ghost town these days, i.e> "negative attitudes"

Heres me thinking this was a discussion forum!!!

i hope someone out there has a minty condition hj knife with a nice solid red hj daimond insignia & posts it here sometime soon, so c,mon blade collectors lets see em grin

Bye Mac 66

Mac 66 #260091 02/20/2012 02:22 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Mac,

Even one mint HJ knife with a whiggling "full red" diamond would not convince me. Want to know why?

I visit now for over 10 years all the major European fairs: most in Belgium, France and Germany. I am talking about hundreds of fairs. One would be surprised how many HJ knifes are still surfacing here in Europe. At every fair I look at all of the offered HJ knifes: that makes thousants of HJ knifes in total.

When I started, the following HJ knife features where considered suspicious and most collectors would not buy knifes having them:

- plastic hangers
- erzats (pressed paper) hangers
- etched maker marks
- ink stamped maker marks
- aluminium rivets
- eaglehead shaped pommels
- ... many more

But as these features were showing again and again on freshly surfaced HJ's bearing always the same maker mark; I have been able to draw conclusions about these features being period and applied by typical producers and sometimes even in particular years of production.

The "full red" diamond is not a feature like that: these show up on all kinds of poor quality knifes from which the original diamond has been removed and/or for which the investment in a replacement original " dotted red" diamond is too high.

It is as simple as that.

I wish you lots of fun with collecting!

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 02/20/2012 02:40 PM.

You never have enough HJ-knifes!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
janjan Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
The "full red" diamond is not a feature like that: these show up on all kinds of poor quality knifes from which the original diamond has been removed and/or for which the investment in a replacement original " dotted red" diamond is too high.

Iff it is as simple as that.
Where are these daimonds offered I never saw full red daimonds offered as replaments

janjan #260143 02/20/2012 11:24 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
No, because those "full red"'s would not sell anymore in our days: now you can buy fake "dotted red" diamonds, also with the RZM mark on the back.

The fakers learned how to make the dots in the red emaille a long time ago... does that surprises anyone?

Fortunately, we can still recognise the fakes... but some (owners) claim those to be original as well...

Just hope they will not start a post about it in order to get them legitimised here... laugh

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 02/20/2012 11:28 PM.

You never have enough HJ-knifes!
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
I agree. Proven Fake diamonds.

Dave

Dave #260179 02/21/2012 02:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
I agree. Proven Fake diamonds.

Dave


Wheres the proof?

Mac 66 #260181 02/21/2012 03:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Read the above posts. If you accept what they are saying, buy all you can find !

Mac 66 #260182 02/21/2012 03:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Read the above posts. If you do not accept what they are saying, buy all you can find !

Dave #260184 02/21/2012 03:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Herman, is the only person saying there fake & he has no solid proof either so i rest my case until they can be proven Fakes?, how do you get a solid red hj daimond insignia fitted into the griplate recess with the required movement without removing the origional rivits & griplates on so many origional period hj knifes?

Mac 66 #260216 02/22/2012 04:29 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Several techniques exist to make a replacement diamond fit perfectly and wiggle, also without breaking the grip rivets, check the "Restoration, Conservation, and Maintenance Forum"!

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Several techniques exist to make a replacement diamond fit perfectly and wiggle, also without breaking the grip rivets, check the "Restoration, Conservation, and Maintenance Forum"!

Herman




Herman, had a look on that restoration forum & cant see any info on this subject,

the fitting of the hj daimond into the griplate is a very near impossible task without damaging
the daimond prongs, if you know how it can be done please explain in detail ?

Regards Mac 66

Mac 66 #260249 02/23/2012 12:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Herman, Don't tell him. He is probably making them laugh laugh

Besides, he thinks they are OK, not going to change his mind anyway.

Dave

Dave #260256 02/23/2012 07:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
janjan Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
A respectabel dealer in the US has one for sale.

Jan

janjan #260272 02/23/2012 03:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: janjan
A respectabel dealer in the US has one for sale.

Jan


Jan, whos the dealer?

wouldnt mind a look at this peice wink

Mac 66 #260276 02/23/2012 05:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
janjan Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380

janjan #260280 02/23/2012 07:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 32
J
Offline
J
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 32
I think that the producer of the pins-midgliedabzeigen-also the diamond inlays have made for the HJ daggers.All RZM1/...
The RZM models,I,v seen different makers with ,,smooth,, or ,,full red,,inlays.
RZM M1/105
RZM M1/130
BR
Jozeph

y-4445%20335.jpg (31.32 KB, 409 downloads)
jozeph #260285 02/23/2012 08:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Thanks Jan for the link wink

thats a good condition late war hj knife with plastic hanger
on the scabbard, i dont think Bill Shea would sell knifes with repro solid red daimonds so he must believe in them as well,


Jozeph, thank you for your info on the RZM code for the solid red hj daimonds

much appreciated smile

Mac 66 #260292 02/23/2012 10:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
janjan Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
Hi Jozeph


do you have a picture of the back?

janjan #260295 02/23/2012 10:30 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Looks like a typical "full-red-diamond-quality" HJ knife to me...

From the pictures I can see:
- broken hanger
- messed with back rivets
- sharpened blade
...

What are you guys waiting for?
Buy it before it's gone! grin grin

Best regards,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Herman , we dont want to buy the hj knife Bill Shea has on his site, we are discussing "Solid Red Daimonds",

Stop being a smarty pants it doesnt suit you sir, grin

Here is a few pix of a hj knife solid red daimond BobI
posted on the WAF, it has a lot of patina & nice gold fleck.

IMG_8796.JPG (40.44 KB, 280 downloads)
Mac 66 #260297 02/23/2012 10:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
2.

IMG_8797.JPG (45.62 KB, 279 downloads)
Mac 66 #260298 02/23/2012 10:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
3.

IMG_8798.JPG (22.96 KB, 278 downloads)
IMG_8799.JPG (30.59 KB, 277 downloads)
Mac 66 #260299 02/23/2012 11:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Here is a very nice solid red with the wiggle movement that Raymond posted on the WAF with unmessed with rivits. cool

MVC-024S.JPG (39.93 KB, 349 downloads)
MVC-025S.JPG (40.29 KB, 348 downloads)
Mac 66 #260307 02/24/2012 12:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Interestinger and interestinger !

The loose diamond the above pics make you think about this. As you do, note:

+ The loose pin looks like the real ones and has an aged look

+ The rivets don't look like an amateur installation

Also

- An aged look means nothing. There are not only old fakes, but I can duplicate that look by sticking a new pin in a flower pot on my back deck for a month or two.

- People putting together bad daggers are getting better at it. Some of them a lot better.

Dave #260327 02/24/2012 10:19 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 50
There is nothing new in your posts, Mac!

Same pictures as on WAF. Your arguments did not convince over there and certainly will not work on this forum, which is specialised in daggers.

- The "dirty" diamond is clearly artificilally aged, I said it in a more delicate way before you posted the pictures, but you seem to ignore things that are not stated blundly.

So I'll be more direct with you:

- The other one in the grip is even a bad fake with the blurry swastica. Plus you can clearly see how the original diamond has been removed: the cutout has pressure dammage from lifting the original diamond, no need to break the rivets! The original diamond was probably used in a better conditioned knife that needed the diamond upgrade and that is why you were able to buy the leftover with a fake "full red" diamond inserted so cheaply.

Best regards,

Herman

MVC-024S.JPG (92.09 KB, 333 downloads)

You never have enough HJ-knifes!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Herman, you have not convinced me that solid reds are early fakes, infact i think they could be either an later variant or prototype that was used near the end of hj knife production as you dont really see an abundance of knifes with the solid red daimonds, this change from fish scale or pimpeled daimonds to solid red could have been to match the rest of the hj insignia of solid red in the hj shirt sleeve patch ect but thats just my thoughts, now the only solid reds i believe in until some solid proof comes to light to say there fakes are the type in Raymonds hj knife & BobI type & the solid red with speckled affect through the red, all other types imo are post war copies.

your opinion that the griplate was damaged on Raymonds knife to remove the origional daimond doesnt wash with me as there is No evidence of this in the photo you have pointed out with an arrow that damage occured as the same lip appears to be part of the griplate & made during the manufacture process, you see this effect on other hj knifes, now can you answer me a question i asked you on a previous post, How do you fit a hj daimond into the griplate without damaging the rivits, griplate & daimond prongs??

i am keeping a positive open mind on these solid reds until they are 100% proved to be Fake as stated by you & Dave,

if anybody else reading this thread has any more solid red info or hj knifes with solid red daimonds please post.

Thanks Mac 66 smile

Mac 66 #260371 02/25/2012 01:36 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 541
S
Offline
S
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 541
I agree that burying an insignia (or blade) in the ground can fake-age it (chemically). On the other hand, I've had a guy (on a different site) type that all my daggers were fakes when I know that none of them were. It doesn't sound like this guy is doing it on purpose to me.

I would go with the group opinion. Post it on other sites too of course, but in my experience, this one has given me more useful information. Even if the diamond insignia is fake, it sounds like no one is saying the rest is fake, so you could buy a real HJ diamond easily from several places and re-set it yourself.

Last edited by spacey; 02/25/2012 01:40 AM.

Von zwei Übeln wählt man besser das, was man schon kennt.
spacey #260372 02/25/2012 01:47 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 541
S
Offline
S
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 541
Let's lighten things up with a REAL fake (that I've posted once before a few months ago)...





Von zwei Übeln wählt man besser das, was man schon kennt.
spacey #260397 02/25/2012 02:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Heres another 3 solid red daimonds that are 100% Fake & this type have No prongs on the back & found to be glued into the griplate so no wiggle here guys shocked

Transitional-HJ-Eickhorn-00.jpg (69.42 KB, 272 downloads)
MVC-029S.JPG (40.17 KB, 270 downloads)
HJ%201.jpg (79.83 KB, 270 downloads)
Mac 66 #260402 02/25/2012 04:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
janjan Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
HI

THIS ONE JUST CAME IN
IT LOOKS LIKE THE RED IS GLAS ANS A VERY FINE DOTTING IS IN THE RED

HJ RUIT1.JPG (40.8 KB, 254 downloads)
HJ RUIT2.JPG (41.44 KB, 256 downloads)
HJ RUIT2.JPG (41.44 KB, 254 downloads)
HJ RUIT3.JPG (48.52 KB, 256 downloads)
HJ RUIT4.JPG (75.72 KB, 254 downloads)
janjan #260404 02/25/2012 04:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 722
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: janjan
HI

THIS ONE JUST CAME IN
IT LOOKS LIKE THE RED IS GLAS ANS A VERY FINE DOTTING IS IN THE RED



jan, this is the solid red i believe to be genuine until they are proven Fake?

this type of solid red is a very good quality made daimond like the pimpeled version imo,

Can you post photos of the hj knife & scabbard please?

Thanks Mac 66.

Mac 66 #260409 02/25/2012 05:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
janjan Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,380
Here some pictures of the rest of the dagger

HJ DOLK PLAST1 (Medium).JPG (33.46 KB, 234 downloads)
dolk2 (Medium).JPG (28.11 KB, 235 downloads)
HJ DOLK PLAST4 (Medium).JPG (36.17 KB, 232 downloads)
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,261,595 SS Bayonets
1,760,330 Teno Insignia Set
1,128,791 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
Luftwaffe Swords
by Tanker - 03/27/2024 07:29 PM
Paul Weyersberg Heer
by Tanker - 03/27/2024 07:13 PM
HJ Fahrtenmesser,
by OWN - 03/27/2024 07:05 PM
Wir fahren gegen Engelland - Battle of Britain
by Stephen - 03/27/2024 10:06 AM
Hiddensee brooch
by benten - 03/24/2024 04:13 PM
Latest New Posts
Personalized reproduction honor ring source?
by Simone - 03/29/2024 07:02 AM
F Dula with a twist
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 03/28/2024 09:29 PM
HJ Fahrtenmesser,
by OWN - 03/28/2024 06:18 PM
Wir fahren gegen Engelland - Battle of Britain
by Gaspare - 03/28/2024 12:34 AM
Paul Weyersberg Heer
by Tanker - 03/27/2024 11:30 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics31,652
Posts328,710
Members7,501
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
5 members (BretVanSant, Simone, The_Collector, benten, polop), 589 guests, and 94 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5