UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum unusual TR police sword, never seen this pattern

Hi,

what do you think about that piece? Is that a fantasie put together piece, or a legit TR item?

Thanks for comments!

The sabre shown with accoutrements is an insecure mixture.
Let�s start with the chain on the scabbard ring - the chain is improper.
The sabre itself is a PRE(!) IIIR sabre as we can see due to the form of the hilt, the wireless black grip section and the fixed scabbard ring.
Therefore the IIIR police emblem (is it gilded?) for sure was not on this hilt at the time of production.
When was the emblem attached? If it is not glued (which would be an immediate no no) but attached with pins nobody knows for sure when it was done. I have a lot of IIIR police photos of such plain "Einheitss�bel" in wear but not one with such police emblem attached so even privat attaching is quite uncommon.
Finally attached to the sabre is an SS NCO bayonet troddel, improper for a sabre. From just these pics I cannot say it the troddel is period/original, they are naturally also faked around. But an original troddel has a certain kind of worth itself.
Concerning the troddel much more and dteailed pics would be required to do a serious statement.
I hope with all points mentioned above you can make your own decision....
Regards,

BTW if you agree I would switch this thread to the proper sword forum.
Regards,

I do not have it here to make more pics, I will ask for some.

The knot would be the main reason for me to buy this sabre ;-)

I was a bit skeptical because of the style of this sabre, but it comes from private, so there is a good chance for it to bee good IMO.

Maybe I will buy it, if the price is right.

The hanger was mounted to display it at the wall, I believe. And yes, please move to the sword forum.

Thanks for your comment!

It's really a tossup as to when the components were put together. Could have been a period update/upgrade with the addition of the insignia. The troddel doesn't bother me that much. You do see different non-regulation combinations on these sometime. It is hard to tell from the photos, but I think there's a good chance the troddel is authentic. The chain is totally out of place.

Here are details of the knot, looks good to me.

What do you think?

Looks like normal age and wear to the strap.

Knot looks original to me. One thing, isn't there usually a roundish type slide at the top of the knot stem?

yes, should be. Got lost, maybe???

To me that does not look like a normal shadow. Could it be a black epoxy glue? FP

I will have it here in a few days, then we will get a better look on it.

Wotan provided excellent remarks concerning this sword. Which leads to the question, what is this sword supposed to be? The photograph does not reveal the entire shape, but Wotan called it a Sabre/Saber. So if it is a Sabel, we have some problems with the NCO SS style Troddel. Is it supposed to be be a private purchase NCO Sabel? But these were not authorized. As Wotan explained, there was an Einheitsbabel authorized for mounted police use after 1936. At first it was the old Prussian Schupo sabel that was of WWI origin, then a style like the Eickhorn M189 was adopted. There was no private purchase of these sabers for mounted police. So someone was not doing their homework.

But we find an officer style police eagle attached in some manner to the langet. An NCO attaching an officer style police eagle to his sword? I think not. But then it must be an officer private purchase sword? But it is a Sabel not a Degen. And it has an NCO Troddel on what is perhaps supposed to be an officer sword.

You write that you are purchasing from "private", so I take that to mean a private collection? To me that is no guarantee any better than a dealer. Too many questions and inconsistencies with this saber.

In the images while the curvature is slight, it looks like it's a saber to me also. Which if you took off the emblem on the langet - is identical to an Imperial era Artillery and (supply) Train private purchase saber (Extras�bel) for wear by ordinary enlisted men while off duty. A point that was earlier commented on by Wotan, stating that the sword was pre-Third Reich. FP

Fred, I guess I got so involved in writing the post that I forgot the point I was trying to make with the "private purchase" statement. Officers were allowed to continue wearing their earlier Private Purchase pre-III Reich swords in lieu of the newly designed police sword. I could understand some decoration to their sword using the police insignia. The NCOs were not permitted this liberty. So a pre-III Reich private purchase NCO sword would not have been used by a III Reich police officer, nor by an NCO.

Joe, It seems that you were not the only one to forget something. What I forgot to mention is that this was not a Prussian sword/saber. It's a Saxon Artillery-Train pattern that was not a badge of rank. Being instead what the lower grades of enlisted (horse) mounted soldiers wore off duty instead of dress bayonets. Not officers, or those senior grade NCO's (Unteroffizier mit Portepee) who could wear the officer's sword and knot. Fred

got it today, the eagle is neither soldered nor glued, it is fixed with its prongs.

Only photos with flash possible, sorry.

knot:

more

Whether it is pinned or whatever, it makes no difference.

The troddel and sword look good to me. Although the emblem could have been soldered on, the most frequent method for such seems to be by pins. Personally, I feel that's a positive and comforting sign. For there to be a bit of "wiggle" in the insignia is something I look for on such attachments. The emblem looks to be gold-plated, possibly indicating the sword belonged to a water police member. Really a nice and unusual find.

Which for a period piece makes sense because the common high strength adhesives that we have now did not exist back then, and soldering has its own technical issues. Which is what makes the images that have been posted so interesting. Because it looks like the langet with the emblem on it was soft soldered in place. With some additional solder used to try and fill in a gap between it and the knuckle bow itself. FP

Hello Forum,
sorry for my bad english,but i`am German cumming from H�rtgen Forest near Cologne.
The US troops have fight heere the batle of Bulge.
So,my interest most of Germann Seitengewehre from Napolion �ra to 1945 end of WW 2.
I look around at the forum and saw this item and your comments.
This sabre was Bayern for Homeguards (was verry often) and the looks like a police
badge on the side was completly nonsens and the made of this looks like new.
The item has a welded ring on it seems like bevor 1908.
The troddel with 2 black strips on the badge is a new and it made so for look like ss.
But SS used later strips with 3 blacks,i think was made early 1970`s.
Greetings
Michael 04

Hello Forum,
i`ll wrote in German and hope you can translate me.
Hier wird ein Bayrischer Infanterie S�bel der B�rgerwehr gezeigt mit einem Starren Ring an der Scheide
der auf eine fertigung vor 1908 schlie�en l�sst.
B�rgerwehr ist meine annahme da keine Griffwicklung vorhanden ist.
Die Troddel ist eine weit verbreitete F�lschung der 70er Jahre die eine SS Manschaftstroddel
darstellen soll.
Das Abzeichen auf dem Parierlappen soll eine Verwendung in der Polizei andeuten.
Das St�ck ist weder aus damalig verwendetem Material noch an Diesem S�bel jemals gewesen
und m.E.nach auch eine Neufertigung.
Hier wurde eine sch�ne Orginalwaffe zum besseren Verkauf mit falschen Insignien
aufgewertet zum Schaden der Samler.
Gr��e Michael04

Hello Michael,

As pointed out by others, there are several problems with this sword. As Fred points out, it is made like a Saxon Sabel. That is to say, it has a very distinctive pommel, backstrap without ears, and grip shape that was common to Saxon swords of this type. Most of them did not have a langet, however... Alcoso shows their Nr.1397 made with a langet as a Saxon Police sword. WKC also made a "Sachsen Polizei-Sabel" as their Nr.198 with a langet. This is clearly not an Alcoso or WKC sword (as shown in the period catalogs) but the owner has not said who the maker is on the blade. We know that the Troddel does not belong on this sword and neither does the chain hanger.

The question is when was the post-1936 Polizei sword grip eagle attached to the langet and is it original to the sword? As Joe points out, it is not regulation no matter how it is attached. I suspect it was attached postwar and frankly it is not of very good quality and looks like a newly made brass cast eagle to me. Bottom line is that this may well be a Saxon Police sword but the eagle was not attached to it when it was manufactured IMHO.