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#258584 01/28/2012 12:42 AM
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Gents, what do you think about this dagger?

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den70 #258585 01/28/2012 12:43 AM
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trademarck

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den70 #258586 01/28/2012 12:44 AM
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motto

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den70 #258587 01/28/2012 12:45 AM
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eagle

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den70 #258588 01/28/2012 12:47 AM
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pommel 1

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den70 #258589 01/28/2012 12:48 AM
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pommel 2

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den70 #258590 01/28/2012 12:50 AM
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part of scabbard. thanks for your opinions.

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den70 #258601 01/28/2012 08:52 AM
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Original Dagger, but blade has been lightly buffed and am not sure about the leather. Would have to see in hand to determine if it has been recovered, but leather looks to new for the condition of the dagger IMO.


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den70 #258981 02/02/2012 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: den70
part of scabbard. thanks for your opinions.


Looks good BUT the is nothing period on this one. Complete fake. Part of new series of good fakes like the TeNo leader I posted.

There is a way you can tell...while I am gathering info on this HJ repro....I suggest to my verteran colleagues to pull out their HJ Horsters and compare just the eagle details on the scabbard. How the eagle is placed (eagle wing tip distance to scabbard throat), sword crossguard, angle of eagle arm holding hammer, tilt of eagles head,...and there is more but...wait...
there is a knock on the door....I got to answer.....or, hope it's not the dagger Men in Black. laugh


-Serge-

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Serge, unless you can trace it back to the repro man, I wouldn't be too quick to condem it as Horster had more than one die. I looked at MANY Horsters from Joe P. over the years and there are variations. I haven't seen a repro yet that could reproduce the wear and finish to the steel scabbards, especially the plating loss and patina to the tip as seen on this one.
Again, the leather just doesn't look correct, but that doesn't condem the scabbard itself.


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You maybe right Ron, but I will need to look at this one very closly. I'll put up a photo tomorrow of the eagle and lets see if you can recall these two as being Horster varients.

Joe P. still doesn't have a computer?
The guys a wizzard on daggers.

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I have tried to drag Joe P. into the internet society, but he steadfastly refuses.
Another feature about Horster produced HJ Leaders is the fact that I have yet to see a centered throat. I can't figure out why that is such a problem with Horster. The lip is usually way off center when you look at them carefully.


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Serge You very well may be causing more harm than good here condemning pieces with these minor and sometimes major variations that DO exist with authentic pieces made by the same maker. Let's have at least some proof. EVERYTHING DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THE SAME.
This textbook crap is way out of control on these forums.JMHO--and that is why Joe has no interest.


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I think everybody who would have spoken. Please forgive me that just does not add the comparative photos, but I do not like what they would have immediately affected the course of the discussion. In my humble opinion, this dagger the copy. In addition to differences in design, there are technological differences from the original daggers. This kind of differences can be traced to many fake daggers sold in the territory ex-USSR.

Motto. Small differences in the blade. Fake blades are dull gray in color, unlike the original blades. Even with the poor state of the blade can be seen on the original dagger luster and remains crossgrayning. What can not be said about the fake blades. Polishing the blade on the copy does not give a mirror finish. I think this is due to different chemical composition of the metal. The photo shows the difference in motto background etching.
at the top of the copy at the bottom of the original.

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den70 #259060 02/03/2012 09:06 PM
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The pommel. Small differences in the pattern of the stamp. Note the difference in coverage. Original daggers have defects in the coating as a dagger RAD leader. Copies do not have such defects. I think this is just due to difference of the chemical composition of the alloy.
left a copy, the original right.

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den70 #259061 02/03/2012 09:08 PM
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The eagle at the scabard. The difference in the image of an eagle. If you watch, in all references books on the photos the Horster HY Leader you can see the eagle to the right.

left a copy, the original right.

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den70 #259062 02/03/2012 09:10 PM
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Trademark. Pay attention to the substrate and the depth of etching. With almost perfect repetition of pattern stamps, you can see the difference in the technologies of etching.

left a copy, the original right.



In addition to this type of dagger, there are various copies of that I was able to compare in the my hands of the original daggers from the collections of the U.S. and Europe.

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den70 #259066 02/03/2012 10:03 PM
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Are you sure about the order of the TM's. It looks like the original is on the left and the copy on the right.

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Originally Posted By: Houston Coates
Serge You very well may be causing more harm than good here condemning pieces with these minor and sometimes major variations that DO exist with authentic pieces made by the same maker. Let's have at least some proof. EVERYTHING DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THE SAME.
This textbook crap is way out of control on these forums.JMHO--and that is why Joe has no interest.



You wanted proof Houston? You got it.
I just don't spout out my beliefs without some proof. Den70 beat me to it, but I have been in touch with dagger colleages in Russia and building up some convincing evidence. There are a whole new series of good fakes out there. We in the west are a bit slow to catch on...
Your looking at the new fake HJ Leader dagger that Den70 points out in details. (That's MY Opinion)
Find me a Horster HJ Leader that has the 'varient' features the subject dagger has, with solid provenance older than 8 years. It doesn't 'all have to be the same' but the 'variation' has to have solid provenance older than 8 years.
In Russia these fakes are well known, along with the 55DLV Henckels, TeNo Leader, Postschutz and a few more.

Yes, I agree...I'm 'causing more harm' but it's to the guys that sell these, not to the collector.


Serge

Jim W #259093 02/04/2012 09:14 AM
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Jim, the copy at left as is not sad. And that would not be unfounded, I pointed you to a defect on the blade indicates that it is the same dagger. The original logo have background is different in color. Polishing the blade and trademark shagreen background with smooth gray color.

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Houston, I have only the most obvious differences. Believe me there are more. However they are not so striking, even more so with my knowledge of English is hard for me to explain them properly.;)


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Sergei, you are absolutely right. Unfortunately, these daggers appeared 6-8 years ago. Their quantity and variety of models is impressive. It's hard to trace daggers without a number to understand that their quantity. But in the case of the TENO and POST is easy.
And if Russia deal with them. So at the moment because of the crisis and other reasons, many of these fakes are sold in America and Europe. The main advocates of these items have often themselves and sell them, and their prices are lower than in America and Europe


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den70 #259096 02/04/2012 03:12 PM
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Well Done Den70

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Yes, Well Done, Den. Very convincing evidence.

Den, I encourage you to post more differences

I am going to feature this thread so others will notice it.

Dave

Last edited by Dave Hohaus; 02/04/2012 03:59 PM.
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Originally Posted By: den70
Sergei, you are absolutely right. Unfortunately, these daggers appeared 6-8 years ago. Their quantity and variety of models is impressive. It's hard to trace daggers without a number to understand that their quantity. But in the case of the TENO and POST is easy.
And if Russia deal with them. So at the moment because of the crisis and other reasons, many of these fakes are sold in America and Europe. The main advocates of these items have often themselves and sell them, and their prices are lower than in America and Europe


Den, Very solid evidence you presented in a clear and simple detailed manner.- THANK YOU ! smile
I am told that these daggers are called 'Belarus daggers' because they seem to originate from Belarus. Then others say no, they are from St. Petersburg. Do you know who makes them ? Somebody must have 'talked' by now. The 55cm Henckels -you know about that one too?

I have to admit that this HJ Leader is a very good copy...but we can still tell but you need to know your 'stuff' and look very closly.

-serge-

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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
Yes, Well Done, Den. Very convincing evidence.

Den, I encourage you to post more differences

I am going to feature this thread so others will notice it.

Dave


Dave if you want to see the difference in the HY Leader, here are a couple photos marked copy of the red, original is green. I find it difficult to correct English to describe these differences but I think you will understand me. Pay attention to the technological processing of Ferula, and ornaments made on scabbard fiting. Similar technology can be seen in the deviation Railroad 2 and GO.

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den70 #259112 02/04/2012 10:22 PM
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more

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Originally Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner)

Den, Very solid evidence you presented in a clear and simple detailed manner.- THANK YOU ! smile
I am told that these daggers are called 'Belarus daggers' because they seem to originate from Belarus. Then others say no, they are from St. Petersburg. Do you know who makes them ? Somebody must have 'talked' by now. The 55cm Henckels -you know about that one too?

I have to admit that this HJ Leader is a very good copy...but we can still tell but you need to know your 'stuff' and look very closly.

-serge-


It's not only my credit. There are a some collectors from Russia who detected these things like fake and know the different "red flags" to identify them. And there are a some dealers who in all ways, including going to the person trying to pass them off as originals. The most active is Andrey Dubinin, from Moscow (Sokol, anlvd2). Who itself was selling these daggers, including me personally. Sergey you are right calling them "Belarus" some of use that name, I call them - "Moscow" or "Russian." (About Pitersburg dagger not hear it). I think that these names occur, depending on who is selling these items, the dealer from Belarus, Moscow or elsewhere. So I would not want to say that their produce is now in these countries or cities. All subjects performed quite professionally, but have some differences in design and big differences in technology. Is it possible that these old Spanish daggers copy? But clearly these fakes are widespread in the former Soviet Union for several reasons. The relative cheapness, availability in the domestic market, and of course a small number of originals for comparison. And general the best recommendation from one of the best at that time, specialists in Russia (Sokol). For me, it's understanding when comparing two daggers Teno Leader one of which I personally bought from Sokol and the second by (LTC)Johnson. After consulting with colleagues, we have identified a wide range of these daggers have some common features. Sometimes these daggers have such interesting and compelling detail, one can only wonder.

Best Den.


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den70 #259117 02/05/2012 12:50 AM
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Den,

Please keep posting more comparisons! Not only of the HJ leader, but others too.

Dave

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Great study, Den!

Thank you very much for this important contribution to the HJ forum!

Best regards,

Herman


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den70 #259140 02/05/2012 06:26 PM
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Den, the more I ready the more confused I am. First of all, HJ Leader Daggers by Horster DON'T HAVE CROSSGRAINING ON THE BLADE. The blades are plated throughout all except the very tip, hence no crossgraining. As I previously stated, the blade on the supposed reproduction has been buffed, so no crossgraining would have been seen if it even had had any.
While the fittings are different, I would agree with Serg that I would have to see in in hand for a better determination. Also, I didn't like the leather from the start, but that being said, I have seen different types of leather used on originals: all the way from pin-seal types to the grain shown on these. This is especially evident on Eickhorns.
So, yes I am sure this could be a reproduction, but don't be so quick to condem it as MANY original variations DO exist.
For years, HJ Leaders have been a challenge to the collector and dealer as to source and originality just for this reason.


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There is no substitute for seeing and holding in the hand. It would be great if collectors from all over the world could get togeather in one place to look at these items and bring some known old originals for comparison. I'm sure we could do this at the SOS if only we had some of these pieces that are being questioned. Can anyone bring some? I can provide a meeting romm for this. If we could do this we could take comparison photos and share the results with everyone here on this forum.

Last edited by Houston Coates; 02/05/2012 07:29 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Ronald Weinand
Den, the more I ready the more confused I am. First of all, HJ Leader Daggers by Horster DON'T HAVE CROSSGRAINING ON THE BLADE. The blades are plated throughout all except the very tip, hence no crossgraining. As I previously stated, the blade on the supposed reproduction has been buffed, so no crossgraining would have been seen if it even had had any.
While the fittings are different, I would agree with Serg that I would have to see in in hand for a better determination. Also, I didn't like the leather from the start, but that being said, I have seen different types of leather used on originals: all the way from pin-seal types to the grain shown on these. This is especially evident on Eickhorns.
So, yes I am sure this could be a reproduction, but don't be so quick to condem it as MANY original variations DO exist.
For years, HJ Leaders have been a challenge to the collector and dealer as to source and originality just for this reason.


The original blades Herster that I saw have a mirror finish, fake blades have polishing but they do not have a mirror shine. The method of RZM etching fundamentally different. I do not take into account, quality and originality of the leather, as this part could easily be replaced on the original subject. I know that Herster had some differences HY Leader, I will show it in a particular topic that would not be confused colleagues. Ron, forgive me if confuse you. Your comments very helpfull. I think, your comment will bring greater clarity to my pictures.


In photo 2 original, and 4 fake TM Herster. All daggers are different. Fakes have the same eagle on the scabard and other signs allowing to understand that it's a series, but not handmade.

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den70 #259178 02/06/2012 03:15 PM
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I have to admit that one of these HJleader fakes did fool myself (and several VERY experienced collectors/dealers who -like mine- had not already heard of super fakes at this date). ALMOST. Until (I did come from a show) I did hold it side to one of my doubtless originals I do own since a lot of more than 8 years. And the fake directly went back to the seller (germany).
There were a lot of minute differences to the originals (which I now can observe that some of them are already removed - so take care - FAKERS ARE WATCHING!!!).
Truely the best of detecting such a fake (I personally could observe postal protection, TNleader, RLBleader 1st and 2nd model and several highly spurious DLV 55cm und SS mod 36) is holding it in hands, comparing it IN REAL to a doubtless original (yes, I know that even originals differ!), then the SPECIAL differences are quite obvious. Especially the overall look which looks mostly patinated but up to now does not come close to true patination. As den70 mentioned this might come from material problems.
But the true problem will start when these already superfakes are improved, maybe with even more convincing materials and old production methods which I assume are still available in these fake cloning regions and when these fakes are around several years, due to transport and so on, with "proper" traces of wearing and age...
Already they are super fakes but still not perfect. Will they become perfect????------
Regards,


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I have to add that some of these superfakes obviously might have original parts built in, which makes even more difficult to detect them. Since years I watch men from the east on german shows buying wracks of daggers for very cheap prices. I recently have had discussion here at GDC with a member mentioned by den70. See http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=257453#Post257453
Naturally also original spare parts offered by well known dealers are obviously in high demand for the same reason.

Oh, yes, gov daggers seem also to be in the super fake aera.

Regards,


Last edited by wotan; 02/06/2012 03:32 PM.

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Thank you for added comments Wotan. Certain daggers, like the HJ Leader, must be viewed in person to be totally sure. One dead give away IMO, it the blade finish and the very tip. After you view several in person, traits of the originals become obvious. The plated finish on Horsters and the needle like tip are next to impossible for the reproduction artist to duplicate. Go to the shows and look at as mamy HJ Leaders as you can and, over time, you will see what I am addressing in this thread.


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Nothing new here. I knew this would happen when the Russians showed up at the shows 5 or so years back and bought every junky dagger they could find ! I've seen this for years with many items other than military goods. If you all remember 8 or 9 years back the Chinese bought all the Japanese nco swords and what happened after that ??? I bring a Japanese officer sword that's so good I can't tell you how many dealers are fooled untill I tell them it's a repro ! I know for sure that many Russians in New York are Taxi drivers by day and master journeymen in enameling and Faberge at night !

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Originally Posted By: Ed Sunday
Nothing new here. I knew this would happen when the Russians showed up at the shows 5 or so years back and bought every junky dagger they could find ! I've seen this for years with many items other than military goods. If you all remember 8 or 9 years back the Chinese bought all the Japanese nco swords and what happened after that ??? I bring a Japanese officer sword that's so good I can't tell you how many dealers are fooled untill I tell them it's a repro ! I know for sure that many Russians in New York are Taxi drivers by day and master journeymen in enameling and Faberge at night !


Ed, let's not hang tags. We do not know WHO and WHERE does or did before these fake. Just was a new market (ex USSR), where the began in the first instant to sell a bad product. These are the laws of business (cheaper to buy more expensive to sell). There are some dealers in Europe and America who sell questionable items, and it does not mean that all dealers sell fakes. Let's share the knowledge that unscrupulous sellers have been hard sale deceive collectors wishing to buy an interesting subject itself to the collection.


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Let's stay a bid objective here and not stigmatize any collector groups: there are many serious Russian collectors and -believe me- if they would not have been at the shows during the past years, the prices would have dropped harder and the hobby would have suffered from it.

Let's be honest: many American and European collectors were on a very tight budget during the last years...

Also, when it comes to fakers: they are not from a particular nationality... think about the first and famous Mr Atwood as an example... and guys, that used to post home fabricated fakes here, like “3-finger-louis”…

Let me repeat that Den's contribution to the forum with this topic is very important, I wish that there were more post like this one!

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 02/07/2012 07:37 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Let's stay a bit objective here and not stigmatize any collector groups: there are many serious Russian collectors and -believe me- if they would not have been at the shows during the past years, the prices would have dropped harder and the hobby would have suffered from it.

Let's be honest: many American and European collectors were on a very tight budget during the last years...

Also, when it comes to fakers: they are not from a particular nationality... think about the first and famous Mr Atwood as an example... and guys that used to post fakes here like “3-finger-louis”…

Let me repeat that Den's contribution to the forum with this topic is very important, I wish that there were more post like this one!

Best regards,

Herman

I'm in agreement with Herman. It's posts like this one that will help collectors from becoming victims of the scammers that are out there try to pass off junk as period collectible items. FP

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